HSE asks for extension to timeline for lead ammunition review

"The shooting community has been campaigning for a voluntary transition away from lead shot and single-use plastics for live quarry shooting over a five-year period."

I haven't and I don't know anyone else that has either 🤔.
Am I an outcast 😊
I think you are entitled to your view, and the shooting organisations (with the support of their members), shooting press (with the support of their readers) and those making guns and ammo (with the support of their customers) are all looking to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. However, if you feel strongly enough about what Shooting Times reported maybe write them a letter?
 
Has there been a poll of the BASC membership to see if they actually do support the transition away from lead? Genuine question not seeking to start an argument or anything like that.
There hasn't been a Yes/No Brexit style poll in that sense. There have been surveys and of course 4 years of consultation and all feedback considered and responded to. Some on here predicted that BASC members would leave in droves in 2020 and that did not happen because most BASC members understand and believe in what their organisation stands for on this policy issue. And I have mentioned this before, there was one question about the voluntary transition at the 2020 BASC AGM and no questions as far as I recall at subsequent AGMs. My own observation is that the perpetual complaints on this forum on the voluntary transition are mainly from non-BASC members who are quite vocal about BASC but not about their own membership organisation. Which, if any, organisation are you a member of?
 
There hasn't been a Yes/No Brexit style poll in that sense. There have been surveys and of course 4 years of consultation and all feedback considered and responded to. Some on here predicted that BASC members would leave in droves in 2020 and that did not happen because most BASC members understand and believe in what their organisation stands for on this policy issue. And I have mentioned this before, there was one question about the voluntary transition at the 2020 BASC AGM and no questions as far as I recall at subsequent AGMs. My own observation is that the perpetual complaints on this forum on the voluntary transition are mainly from non-BASC members who are quite vocal about BASC but not about their own membership organisation. Which, if any, organisation are you a member of?
Perhaps some of us have little to no faith in such organisations.
I do however mingle with members of such organisations and despite their participation with such organisations are STILL using lead!
So what ever you and others spout publicly it ain't happening, oh sure, maybe for a rag or the camera's to appease the masses but as for me, nope I'll tell them publicly how it is and they all can bleep off and mind their own business like buying food grown with herbicides and pesticides, factory farmed milk and eggs. Phosphate filled rivers from there sweet smelling washing detergents. Their degenerate children and any other vice they may indulge in but I ain't quitting lead, got it now!
You, your organisation, the government does not dictate I am suddenly a criminal after hundreds of years of lead being used in firearms with common sense as perfectly fine.
If it's ok for industry to use extremely toxic materials then it's ok for me to use lead.

You and your cronnies play the politics game if you want to but do not ever belittle the guy who chooses to reject the committee mindset.
When I see an organisation with some balls I may get a twinge of excitement.
Good night to you sir.
 
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I’m no longer a member of NGO, mainly because I ceased to work as a keeper but I was with them because BASC didn’t seem to support what I did. It often appeared to make decisions which affected its members without consulting them!
The NRA were much the same, the last decent forward looking chief executive was forced out!
I buy my insurance competitively on the market where I’m not paying for a press centre in the middle of nowhere or a senior executive who drops my sport for political reasons!
You can keep your membership thank you!
 
Why would That be relevant to me asking a perfectly honest and non-argumentative question?
Quite so.

I’ve been (and still am) a member of several shooting related organisations for several decades including BASC (or WAGBI when I first joined) - that in itself doesn’t mean I’m likely to support some of the current views held by BASC or other organisations though.
 
I think you are entitled to your view, and the shooting organisations (with the support of their members), shooting press (with the support of their readers) and those making guns and ammo (with the support of their customers) are all looking to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. However, if you feel strongly enough about what Shooting Times reported maybe write them a letter?
Shooting Times? Didn't they recently claim that arch anti eco extremist George Monbiot was at the heart of the shooting community and then let his diatribe against us to go unchallenged?
 
Dear Mr Gorman.
Do you have in stock for your own personal use and lead based shotgun cartridges other than target loads?

Do you know of any of your colleagues at BASC that also have lead based cartridges in stock?

Do you know of any shops that no longer sell lead based cartridges designed for game shooting?

If you did find a shop that is selling lead ammunition designed for game shooting do you disfellow yourself from that shop?
 
Dear Mr Gorman.
Do you have in stock for your own personal use and lead based shotgun cartridges other than target loads?

Do you know of any of your colleagues at BASC that also have lead based cartridges in stock?

Do you know of any shops that no longer sell lead based cartridges designed for game shooting?

If you did find a shop that is selling lead ammunition designed for game shooting do you disfellow yourself from that shop?
Do you have copper pipes in your heating system?, if so I suggest you rip them out loll 😂
 
……. and those making guns and ammo (with the support of their customers) are all looking to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

Was not so originally, and still on Express cartridges website, after the Fiocchi announcement.

edit to add, not totally against what you are trying to accomplish, however you should be open and honest about the situation, have you published the results of the recent survey you did?



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Friday 6th March

Following our statement of the 28th February (below), we confirm that Lyalvale Express stands firm on all points.

Lyalvale Express were made aware to the announcement in the form of a single email over the weekend from the GTA. This is notconsultation, with the statement already written and signed.

We have had No conversation with BASC or any of the other 8 organisations over the voluntary phasing out of lead shot and plastic wads. Any claim of this is simply untrue.

Lyalvale Express for over 30 years have been manufacturing shotgun cartridges, the expertise and experience in manufacturing the finest cartridges has provided us with a wealth of knowledge and expertise. We would have been pleased to have had opportunity to give help on the issue if we had been consulted.

We continue the task of improvement and development of alternative products benefiting the industry, sport and shooters alike.

We trust that this clarifies any remaining uncertainty regarding Lyalvale Express’s involvement.


Friday 6th March 2020

Statement: Friday 28th February 2020

From: Rodrigo Crespo of Eley Hawk, Paul James of Gamebore, David Bontoft of Hull Cartridge and Roger Hurley of Lyalvale Express

We, the UK’s leading shotgun cartridge manufacturers, hereby address the announcement made by BASC and other organisations on Monday 24th February, stating their “wish to see an end to both lead and single-use plastics in ammunition used by those taking all live quarry with shotguns within five years”.

Firstly, BASC and their fellow organisations had NO consultation with the UK cartridge manufacturers prior to the announcement being made. The UK manufacturers have now discussed the matter collectively. We believe the organisations have looked at a limited amount of products and assumed that these are a viable answer to the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

This is a major concern to us for a number of reasons, reasons we would have explained to the organisations prior to the publication of their announcement, had we been given the opportunity to do so.

Europe is currently experiencing a steel shot shortage. A move from lead to steel shot for the majority of UK’s shotgun ammunition will inevitably put more pressure on the market for raw material. This would create further shortages in the short term and push up the price as the steel shot industry invests to increase capacity.

The examples of overseas markets successfully transitioned to steel shot such as Denmark and the USA water-fowling sector, should not be used as proof of a solution. This is because the steel loads used in these markets in any significant volume are loaded with plastic wads. In addition to this, the US and Danish regulations allow steel cartridges to be loaded to a much higher level of performance than here in the UK, to increase the lethality of the pellet.

Limitations to performance levels of steel ammunition currently allowed in the UK mean that we are already facing tougher challenges when developing an effective steel load compared to those used overseas. Couple this with the move away from plastic wads and we are even further limited on performance. We would like to see an increase in the performance levels allowed before we can begin to develop loads effective enough to produce clean, humane kills in the various types of shooting carried out in the UK.

There are indeed a handful of non-lead ammunition options with biodegradable wads currently on the market however, at this stage it is simply impossible to make these commercially viable. We cannot make a complete switch over to these products within a five year period without substantial investment into the industry. BASC and its fellow organisations do not have an understanding of the manufacturing processes involved and are therefore in no position to determine the length of time required to evolve.

Tungsten and Bismuth materials are very limited in their availability and significantly more costly to produce than steel. This will result in huge increases in costs, based on raw material prices, for smaller gauge shooters who cannot use steel. This may price many shooters out of the sport.
Right now, we need to decide which to eliminate– lead or plastic? We cannot avoid using both. At present the only commercially available options are lead shot with fibre wads, steel with plastic wads or unaffordable premium non-lead shot. Shooters and land owners will need to consider these options and then decide which option is preferable going forward.

We must be clear and educate the organisations as to what is realistic and achievable. Although the development of non-lead, non-plastic alternatives are in the early stages of development, it will be considerable time before a full range of options are available to shooters. This process is a long one that will require vast research, development and investment.

Collectively, we do agree that the industry needs to evolve to become more environmentally friendly. We anticipate this happening as larger industries continue to invest in plastic alternatives which will naturally filter down to ours and other smaller industries. These major industries are in a better position to develop the alternatives, the smaller industries such as ours will then follow. It is unrealistic to expect a relatively small industry such as ours to be at the forefront of the development of such materials.

Moving forward we will continue to encourage the use of steel shot where required, but at this early stage we have no alternative option but to support the use of lead with fibre wads as the solution to the issue of plastic pollution. Where non-lead shot is needed, we encourage the shooters to collect their used plastic wads where possible and dispose of them accordingly, as we know many already do so.

Lastly, we are committed to investing into the alternatives. Our collective goal is to develop high performance ammunition for all shotguns and gauges using sustainable materials and therefore secure the future of shooting. We simply ask that the organisations and individual shooters understand that doing this within a five year window without significant support is IMPOSSIBLE.
 
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Not during my time as a member, quite frankly I had quite enough of the leadership of BASC deciding what my opinion was for me!
If I want to know my opinion I am sure my wife will tell me!
Quite so.

I’ve been (and still am) a member of several shooting related organisations for several decades including BASC (or WAGBI when I first joined) - that in itself doesn’t mean I’m likely to support some of the current views held by BASC or other organisations though.
Ah WAGBI, I remember those days, an organisation that looked after its members before it was taken over by the game shooting crowd.
Still I’m sure they have the members best interests at heart! 😂😂😂
 
All this talk of lead being really bad is frankly pathetic.
Plastic is often touted as being safer.

Actually plastic mimic the estrogen molecule and has been linked to fish breeding cycles being disrupted.

It's probably contributed to woke fannies becoming more prolific. Male testicle shrinkage!

That aside, all BASC is doing is throwing the baby out with the bath water in the vein attempt to save them selves before the grand god that is Westminster and the baby they chucked out funded it!!

Committees =evil!
 
Why would That be relevant to me asking a perfectly honest and non-argumentative question?
Because you are are asking me questions about BASC and apologies if I have it wrong but you seem to mostly refer to BASC when commenting on the topic of voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. So, it would be interesting for me at least to know what organisations, if any, you are a member of and your opinion of their position on lead ammunition. PM me if you prefer.
 
Quite so.

I’ve been (and still am) a member of several shooting related organisations for several decades including BASC (or WAGBI when I first joined) - that in itself doesn’t mean I’m likely to support some of the current views held by BASC or other organisations though.
Agreed, I think that is a very valid point.
 
Dear Mr Gorman.
Do you have in stock for your own personal use and lead based shotgun cartridges other than target loads?

Do you know of any of your colleagues at BASC that also have lead based cartridges in stock?

Do you know of any shops that no longer sell lead based cartridges designed for game shooting?

If you did find a shop that is selling lead ammunition designed for game shooting do you disfellow yourself from that shop?
You reminded me of something - as a kid in the early 1980s I used to melt down what I presume was lead on the gas cooker in the kitchen to make Prince Albert toy soldiers, often whilst something else was cooking on another hob for dinner. How times and awareness has changed and who knows what lies ahead for many of us and the research is catching up.


Lead pipes and what my ammo stockpile might be and all other manner of whataboutery is just deflecting from the elephant in the room - you just want the status quo on your use of lead ammunition - and that is fine - and if you have strength of belief in your position on lead ammunition then it is unclear to me why you are so evangelical about the issue - if others want to discuss other viewpoints or have moved onto non-lead shot for live quarry shooting and the reasons why that is their decision - and if the organisations are encouraging a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting and the reasons why that is their decision - and for their members to hold them to account on that.
 
Because you are are asking me questions about BASC and apologies if I have it wrong but you seem to mostly refer to BASC when commenting on the topic of voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. So, it would be interesting for me at least to know what organisations, if any, you are a member of and your opinion of their position on lead ammunition. PM me if you prefer.
It’s a question you often seem to ask people who call into question posts which you make. I wonder why?
And while I am unsure as to why you feel the answer would be relevant I am disinclined to answer.
 
It’s a question you often seem to ask people who call into question posts which you make. I wonder why?
And while I am unsure as to why you feel the answer would be relevant I am disinclined to answer.
But you didn't call into question a post I made, you asked me a question, and I answered it and then I asked a very simple question back. If you want to be evasive about the organisation you are a member of and continue to focus on BASC instead then fair enough. It is rather curious though - at least to me!
 
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