Humane dispatch for livestock

[jmb]

As I said I can’t find dustshot cartridges loaded commercially, I also load for economy and as far as recoil or the reduction of it is concerned, it doesn’t matter how well built you are, when used in a 6” barrel a factory loaded .410g cartridge, especially a 2 1/2 or 3” load produces enough for it to be painful to use.
Having used .410’s for years I was very surprised the first time I fired one in such a short barrelled weapon.

I hadn’t fired 410 for many a year and always in a long barrelled weapon, never experienced any significant recoil to the extent that it is not an uncommon introductory shotgun for youth.
I have fired plenty ammunition through handguns and carbines and am familiar with short barrels but not on shotgun, other than a Hatton gun ( dust sealed in wax big bore cartridge). Similar recoil to a standard shotgun tbh albeit not absorbed by the shoulder due to where that gun is held and positioned.
Genuine question, I am not sure why felt recoil would go up discharging a 410 through a short barrel As opposed to a long. What are you experiencing when doing so.

 

[Big Mat]

It really baffles me why people seem to want to make humane dispatch so complicated.

It also baffles me why people think, because they own firearms, that they should be out there "doing the right thing" and dispatching every injured deer,cow,pig,sheep etc. I have no desire to shoot my own stock, let alone going out for the fun of it, unpaid to shoot someone elses. I think some people get abit too much of a kick out of killing things.

 

[Greenmist]

I have no desire to shoot my own stock

Neither does the farmer in the original post it would seem, hence him asking the SD member to do it for him.

 

[riflerob]

As I said I can’t find dustshot cartridges loaded commercially, I also load for economy and as far as recoil or the reduction of it is concerned, it doesn’t matter how well built you are, when used in a 6” barrel a factory loaded .410g cartridge, especially a 2 1/2 or 3” load produces enough for it to be painful to use.
Having used .410’s for years I was very surprised the first time I fired one in such a short barrelled weapon.

Ahh, I stand entirely corrected then, didn't have any idea that the shot pistol configuration would be so different. That is a surprise

In terms of the commercially available 'lightest' cartridges, the Eley 'Fourlong' (2.5") is certainly the quietest through the hushpower, and I've seen a number of tests where people have found them to be quite slow compared to Lyalvale, SAGA (Spanish) and others.
It might be worth trying the Eley 2" (just called 'Fourten', I think ?) if you could find a few to test out, they might be similarly slower.

 

[riflerob]

It really baffles me why people seem to want to make humane dispatch so complicated.

It also baffles me why people think, because they own firearms, that they should be out there "doing the right thing" and dispatching every injured deer,cow,pig,sheep etc. I have no desire to shoot my own stock, let alone going out for the fun of it, unpaid to shoot someone elses. I think some people get abit too much of a kick out of killing things.

I was called by a farmer that I do pest control for this morning - ewe savaged by a dog yesterday, found by him this morning and brought back to the yard, in horrible shape. The on-call vet is on another shout and would be a couple of hours, the collection / dispatch company aren't back in work until Tuesday morning, and he's got an animal that's suffering, and is not going to live more than a few hours.

Five minutes after he's called me, I'm in the car. Five minutes after that, the ewe is no longer suffering.

There's no 'getting a kick out of it', or 'fun'. It's animal welfare.

If you'd want to let your own animals suffer for those last few hours, when you have the capability to reduce that suffering, then I think it says a lot about who 'gets a kick out of it'.

 

[Rake Aboot]

It really baffles me why people seem to want to make humane dispatch so complicated.

It also baffles me why people think, because they own firearms, that they should be out there "doing the right thing" and dispatching every injured deer,cow,pig,sheep etc. I have no desire to shoot my own stock, let alone going out for the fun of it, unpaid to shoot someone elses. I think some people get abit too much of a kick out of killing things.

A pretty ignorant statement there.

 

[JTO]

I'd have thought with the 410 adapter in the 12 bore you'll start to get a bit of shot spread, even in that first 24" of travel, which could lessen the bone penetration capability.

= my first thought when I read it.

 

[Triggermortis]

“Ahh, I stand entirely corrected then, didn't have any idea that the shot pistol configuration would be so different. That is a surprise”

When I first tried the weapon it never crossed my mind that the recoil would be any different, I soon realised otherwise, my first thought was the configuration of the pistol as it is a derringer with that typical derringer grip, I ended up having a custom grip made by a very kind member on here (Rory) he did a fantastic job which whilst not reducing the recoil has taken a lot of the sting out of it, the 3” cartridges are like shooting a hand cannon though,the other thing that became very obvious was the loudness of the report,ear protection is a must .

 

[Paul 600]

“Ahh, I stand entirely corrected then, didn't have any idea that the shot pistol configuration would be so different. That is a surprise”

When I first tried the weapon it never crossed my mind that the recoil would be any different, I soon realised otherwise, my first thought was the configuration of the pistol as it is a derringer with that typical derringer grip, I ended up having a custom grip made by a very kind member on here (Rory) he did a fantastic job which whilst not reducing the recoil has taken a lot of the sting out of it, the 3” cartridges are like shooting a hand cannon though,the other thing that became very obvious was the loudness of the report,ear protection is a must .

View attachment 237041

It's even better with a 3" Mag and a 4" barrel

 

[Buchan]

Hi,

I have been asked by a farmer where I shoot to occasionally shoot the odd sheep/goat if they are ever fallen/ sick etc to prevent suffering and I was wondering what the legal requirement is to do so. I have not done it yet it was just a case of asking the question?

I was going to use a single barrel .410 rather than my rifles or does it need to be a rifle?

Any help guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

Post 55 has it right (as fara s I am aware).

If you came across an injured/distressed/dying animal, it's reasonable to kill it humanely.
If this is a requested euthanasia, then you need humane dispatch on your ticket.
If it is for human consumption, WATOK applies and only a licensed slaughterman or vet can do it. And it has to be caprtive bolt and bleeding out (BSE regs).

Those who had poor experiebces - it's almost certainly slightly less than perfect shot placement, you have to take out the hind brain so the shotgun is weapon of choice. Although I have shot a cow in contact with a .32 and flattened the round with no effect!
srvet and I tested the range of shotguns, a 12bore is still sub-skull diameter at 10 yards.

 

[VSS]

If it is for human consumption, WATOK applies and only a licensed slaughterman or vet can do it. And it has to be caprtive bolt and bleeding out (BSE regs).

Unless it's killed by the owner of the animal for his or her personal consumption.

 

[Buchan]

Unless it's killed by the owner of the animal for his or her personal consumption.

It's a bit grey when you look at it, the relevant section being below (FSA home slaughter leaflet):

18. The Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies (TSE) Regulations apply wherever a TSE susceptible animal is slaughtered. This includes home slaughter.

but, it doesn't say how they can be killed. However, I'd assume it is as per slaughter house.

 

[Free range rob]

I can confirm I was able to kill my own stock for the farmhouse before I got my watok, that was only made mandatory when we started doing Xmas orders (there was some restriction on “seasonal” but unable to remember what they were now.

 

[riflerob]

Post 55 has it right (as fara s I am aware).

If you came across an injured/distressed/dying animal, it's reasonable to kill it humanely.
If this is a requested euthanasia, then you need humane dispatch on your ticket.
If it is for human consumption, WATOK applies and only a licensed slaughterman or vet can do it. And it has to be caprtive bolt and bleeding out (BSE regs).

Those who had poor experiebces - it's almost certainly slightly less than perfect shot placement, you have to take out the hind brain so the shotgun is weapon of choice. Although I have shot a cow in contact with a .32 and flattened the round with no effect!
srvet and I tested the range of shotguns, a 12bore is still sub-skull diameter at 10 yards.

It should be noted that there are no such lawful 'conditions for use' on an SGC, and as such, the OP could use a Section 2 shotgun for such an event without needing any such condition listed.

 

[8x57]

I'd have thought with the 410 adapter in the 12 bore you'll start to get a bit of shot spread, even in that first 24" of travel, which could lessen the bone penetration capability. Not an issue for something like a sheep, but potentially more of a problem for a bull or a horse.

You are probably right Rob but I only use it for squirrels at 10-15 yards maximum, I've never patterned it any any further than that and it seems to serve this purpose quite well.
Also because it is in effect only a chamber I would have expected the velocity to be significantly reduced compared to a full length barreled .410" shotgun, hence my experiments regarding penetration but I now need to compare it to a full length gun. I don't have any intention of actually using the adapter to dispatch anything bigger than squirrels. My post was really in response and agreement to your comments about jacketed rounds and high velocity and how surprised I was by the amount of penetration from even what was supposedly a "low powered" cast lead projectile from my 8mm rifle.
My little experiment has obviously made me sufficiently curious to investigate further just to compare the penetrative powers of the 2 1/2" Lyalvale number 6 cartridge when fired from a proper gun to when fired via the adapter in a 12 bore gun.

 

[Triggermortis]

What are you experiencing when doing so.

If the weapon is not held tightly with a heavy load being fired the recoil is enough to have the hammer bite you on the back of your hand but the new grips have for me made it easier to hold the weapon tight enough to stop that happening, certainly I would advise anyone using 3” cartridges in a pistol for the first time to be ready for the recoil, it’s a bit of an eye opener.

 

[williamwansbeck]

12 grams shot equals 185 grains a heavy load in a .357 pistol and the powder to deliver is going to punch in a lightweight hand gun just physics really

 

[deerly departed]

My understanding of the current legal position (I fully accept I may be wrong but nether the less) is that a shotgun of no less than 410 is acceptable so long as it is done in a way to avoid undue suffering. But, a rifle be that centrefire or rimfire can only be used if that rifle is conditioned for humane despatch and you are on land over which you have authority to shoot. As far as I understand the law, AOLQ is not an appropriate condition because you are not hunting an animal and therefore when carrying out a humane despatch the animal is not a ‘quarry’.

Despite the above, I would hope that a degree of common sense is applied if a person safely conducts a humane despatch to avoid the prolonged suffering of an animal……but as we all know sometimes the technical application of law seems to lack any common sense.

But I understood - for HD - the use of a "lesser calibre" was ok with the caveat that it is humane - no distress - no suffering etc.

 

[Czhowa]

For sheep I must have sent over 100 on their way with the 410. Perfectly adequate when point blank. If an animal is so bad that the only option is to put it down then there are rarely any occasions when you can't get close enough. My one exception being a bull with a broken leg (broke in a bale feeder and was not a pretty sight) then I used the 12b at about 8 yards with an sg cartridge. I've used the 12b on sheep in the past because I had it on me when the farmer called but it was... messy.
A .410 is more than enough for humane dispatch if you do it right

 

[One on top of two]

I personally use a .357 my pistol is conditioned for HD on sheep