HWV vs GWP

[Bo Diddley]

This hit home for me! Our GWP is also 10 months and is nothing but challenging. He’s so incredibly smart, great nose on him and really capable… but getting him to channel that is another story. We’ve been working with a gundog trainer who knows the breed and he’s said if he could get a Lab of the same age to do the things our GWP is doing then he’d be a very happy man… HOWEVER… day to day it’s an uphill battle. My husband recently ruptured his Achilles which meant training took a back seat which didn’t help but my goodness. To put it bluntly: this is our first and last. No doubt they are a powerful, beautiful, intelligent dog but not for the faint hearted or short on time. We’ve advertised him about 3 times since we brought him home at 8 weeks so much is the challenge!

Don't give up on the dog, be consistent and perceiver with him and all will come good in the end, you are already seeking some advice from an experienced handler. I've found that the most challenging dogs to train end up the best in the long run. Basic training & discipline must be drilled into them, you will probably have another 18 months of this before you look at him and think this stage is pretty much done, small sessions three times a day, and basic lead exercise in-between. My young cocker bitch is hard work, but she's with me 24-7 at the minute, and turning a corner, the bond is becoming strong. Keep us all posted on how it progresses!

 

[brobough]

Don't give up on the dog, be consistent and perceiver with him and all will come good in the end, you are already seeking some advice from an experienced handler. I've found that the most challenging dogs to train end up the best in the long run. Basic training & discipline must be drilled into them, you will probably have another 18 months of this before you look at him and think this stage is pretty much done, small sessions three times a day, and basic lead exercise in-between. My young cocker bitch is hard work, but she's with me 24-7 at the minute, and turning a corner, the bond is becoming strong. Keep us all posted on how it progresses!

Thank you for this encouragement. Funnily enough, we’ve just booked him for 14 nights residential training with Wiremoor Gundogs who own and work their GWPs. Respite for us and professional polishing up for him. Then onto some 1-2-1 tracking lessons at the end of August. He is nothing if not challenging!!

 

[Bo Diddley]

Thank you for this encouragement. Funnily enough, we’ve just booked him for 14 nights residential training with Wiremoor Gundogs who own and work their GWPs. Respite for us and professional polishing up for him. Then onto some 1-2-1 tracking lessons at the end of August. He is nothing if not challenging!!

What dogs have you owned in the past may I ask?

 

[brobough]

What dogs have you owned in the past may I ask?

This is our second HPR, we had a Vizsla previously. GWP different ballgame. Cockers and Curly Coated Retrievers.

 

[sausage man]

Fantastic post.
We have both.
8yr old HWV
3 1/2 Yr old GWP.
Initial 3.4 years were very hard work with the German.
My son however moved out 2 months ago and now Beryl is a joy as she doesn't live with us anymore.
She working full-time, smartest breed between the two but needs exercise or gets bored.
Beryl thinks she's Villanelle from Killing Eve.
Put her in a wood off the lead where theres no game and she then thinks she's got the lead role in the Matrix.
When stalking superb to heal.
Her main problem is bird retrieving.
We initially thought she was hard mouthed. No she just likes pouncing on them at speed thus cawling through the breasts.
She works far better on birds when she tires.

The Visla (Dougal)just watches strolls over picks the bird up as gently as possible and wiggles his back end in happiness that he's out with his dad.
I love you dad that was such a great shot.
He snorts when he scents a deer, left paws points on feather, right paw point on fur but lacks that killer instinct of a GWP.
I'll probably not get another dog, I'll just use my son's GWP instead and save a fortune in vets bills.
Barbed wire, glass and worryingly eating a full light bulb have been expensive.
If you have a German you need pet insurance as they don't do health and safety!
The Visla is like an effortless seal in water.
German however swam for the first 2 years vertically rather than horizontally she'd eventually straighten out after about 15 mins of splashing on the spot.
German definitely have more character than a ginger whinger!

 

[wytonpjs]

Fantastic post.
We have both.
8yr old HWV
3 1/2 Yr old GWP.
Initial 3.4 years were very hard work with the German.
My son however moved out 2 months ago and now Beryl is a joy as she doesn't live with us anymore.
She working full-time, smartest breed between the two but needs exercise or gets bored.
Beryl thinks she's Villanelle from Killing Eve.
Put her in a wood off the lead where theres no game and she then thinks she's got the lead role in the Matrix.
When stalking superb to heal.
Her main problem is bird retrieving.
We initially thought she was hard mouthed. No she just likes pouncing on them at speed thus cawling through the breasts.
She works far better on birds when she tires.

The Visla (Dougal)just watches strolls over picks the bird up as gently as possible and wiggles his back end in happiness that he's out with his dad.
I love you dad that was such a great shot.
He snorts when he scents a deer, left paws points on feather, right paw point on fur but lacks that killer instinct of a GWP.
I'll probably not get another dog, I'll just use my son's GWP instead and save a fortune in vets bills.
Barbed wire, glass and worryingly eating a full light bulb have been expensive.
If you have a German you need pet insurance as they don't do health and safety!
The Visla is like an effortless seal in water.
German however swam for the first 2 years vertically rather than horizontally she'd eventually straighten out after about 15 mins of splashing on the spot.
German definitely have more character than a ginger whinger!

But I’ll take the Vizsla any day on the hill or the shooting field!

 

[Dunwaters]

This hit home for me! Our GWP is also 10 months and is nothing but challenging. He’s so incredibly smart, great nose on him and really capable… but getting him to channel that is another story. We’ve been working with a gundog trainer who knows the breed and he’s said if he could get a Lab of the same age to do the things our GWP is doing then he’d be a very happy man… HOWEVER… day to day it’s an uphill battle. My husband recently ruptured his Achilles which meant training took a back seat which didn’t help but my goodness. To put it bluntly: this is our first and last. No doubt they are a powerful, beautiful, intelligent dog but not for the faint hearted or short on time. We’ve advertised him about 3 times since we brought him home at 8 weeks so much is the challenge!

Forget about teaching your pup to hunt, he’ll do that himself, get him steady and 100% reliable on the stop and return. At 10 months he’s about where a 6 month old lab would be, they’re slow to mature.
So concentrate on the basics, no game until you’ve got that sorted, you might also contact your local HPR club, they may have puppy and training classes or know of someone that can give you a hand.
From my own experience with HPR’s, deer recovery alone wont keep them entertained, they need more and if you can’t provide it they’ll find it themselves.

 

[NigelM]

Just an update 9 months on from my original post on the subject.

I took "little ****" up to the grouse moor a couple of weeks ago for 4 days of pointing training. He's now 18 months old and coming along very well. The prey drive hasn't slowed up but is now becoming far more controllable. He shocked me on the grouse. He went from clueless on the first run of the first morning to pretty proficient by lunch time. Over the following 3.5 days he proved to be a very good grouse dog, quartering very well, missing nothing, holding point well until I got to him, flushing with attitude and stopping to flush. He's not been shot over yet which will ramp up the excitement levels but we have another 5 months until that happens. What was particularly good was that he was constantly looking back at me, checking to see whether I either had instruction or that I was doing my bit and had seen him on point. The trainers all commented on the bond between us.

Up to the moor again next week to get a few more days pointing in before nesting starts. He then get's another opportunity on July counts and will be put to the test proper in August on a walked up grouse day. Already proven in tracking deer that have run into thick woodland after the shot, turning a 30 minute search into a 30 second recovery. I've not persuaded him to retrieve roe yet, but hopefully we will get there - will save me scrambling through brambles to get them out. He does retrieve fox.

So I think I have ended up with exactly what I asked for. A tougher, hardier, more confident version of a HWV that is a very capable working with both fur and feather. On the moor we had a couple of days of 2 or 3 degrees and rain. He didn't give a toss and just wanted to get back to work. The HWV would not have enjoyed that.

I have however put a lot of hours into him to get him where he is now. They are not an easy breed to get on top of and if you give them an inch they will take a mile. Whilst not as soft as a HWV (which will fall apart if you give it a mild bollocking) there is a soft side to them. If the correction is not strong enough they will ignore it completely and carry on working for themselves. Too strong a correction and they fall apart like a HWV. It's a difficult line to walk. If I didn't have the benefit of being semi retired and enough time on my hands to do the job properly I think he would be pretty wild. Not a breed for the impatient or feint hearted, but if you have the time to put in, the knowledge of having trained a few dogs before and you want a Ferrari (along with the maintenance costs) it's a great breed.

There are a few very distinct lines within the breed. All GWP's are not equal. Mine is predominantly Danish who developed the line for birds. They are softer than the German lines bred for Boar. I wouldn't have a German one, it wouldn't suit me and what I do. Different perhaps if you are a professional stalker and want one as a working dog specifically for deer tracking and taking down injured deer, but that's not my situation. Mine is a house and family dog that I want as an all rounder. And he is almost as velcro as a Vizsla...

He can be a bit feisty with other intact dogs, something that has started in the last few months - I'm hoping it's just a teenager thing and am working hard to persuade him the behaviour is not acceptable. Loves all bitches however and ignores castrated males. At 18 months he is still very immature and the puppy in him still dominates on many occasions. I doubt he will be mature before he's 3 years old - possibly more than that.

Hope that helps someone.

 

[bramble basher]

Just out of interest I here about gwp x labs and hwv x labs anybody using or have heard about gwp x vizsla

Thinking for when the current WHV goes into retirement

Regards bb

 

[NigelM]

Just out of interest I here about gwp x labs and hwv x labs anybody using or have heard about gwp x vizsla
View attachment 301328
Thinking for when the current WHV goes into retirement

Regards bb

A good mate has a HWVxLab. It’s about 40kg and a bit slow. Doesn’t point but steady on the deer and tracks well. Can’t see it having the drive to bring one down. Not for me. But they will all be different, I’m sure there are good ones out there but what you get is less of a sure thing than getting a pure bred dog.

On the other hand I have seen some awesome GWPxLab on the grouse moors in Scotland. I think they call them Pennine Pointers. Very impressed, but again I suspect there are good ones and not so good ones.

When you start crossing what you get can be the best of both breeds, the worst of both breeds and anything in between.

 

[Bowland blades]

A good mate has a HWVxLab. It’s about 40kg and a bit slow. Doesn’t point but steady on the deer and tracks well. Can’t see it having the drive to bring one down. Not for me. But they will all be different, I’m sure there are good ones out there but what you get is less of a sure thing than getting a pure bred dog.

On the other hand I have seen some awesome GWPxLab on the grouse moors in Scotland. I think they call them Pennine Pointers. Very impressed, but again I suspect there are good ones and not so good ones.

When you start crossing what you get can be the best of both breeds, the worst of both breeds and anything in between.

the only bad side of a lab is its desire to eat itself stupid ! Lets just say i swore i would never have another GWP again and every season i see one that helps my resolve to stick to that vow
HWV never met one i would not be happy to own but some have funny quirks

 

[Hayduke]

Just out of interest I here about gwp x labs and hwv x labs anybody using or have heard about gwp x vizsla
View attachment 301328
Thinking for when the current WHV goes into retirement

Regards bb

I have a GWPxLab aka Pennine pointer, super dog, will go for the same cross again. Everything I could have asked for, fits in great at home and a joy to work in the woods. I think at least two litters have been advertised on here in the last 12 months. Biddable, easy going and intelligent, what I have put in time and training wise has been rewarded many many times over.

 

[NigelM]

Another year, another update.

We ended up doing 12 days on the grouse moors last year, 11 days of training and a walked up day over him and 3 other dogs. I even shot over him myself which was a great moment. We've done another 6 days so far this year, training again, and will do another 4 days counting at the end of July. I've even been brave enough to book 8 days walked up this autumn so he had best be on it. His nose for game is quite exceptional and his handbrake turns when he picks up a scent are comical. He's quartering wide and running a good pattern into the wind now. We've worked out cross and tail winds and he's doing well at all angles. He points very steadily and will stay on point until I arrive on the scene which can take several minutes as I'm letting him range wide. Sitting to flush, retrieving well, he's almost the full package. His nemesis is anything with fur on it, especially rabbits. The wheels still fall off when one runs, something we are working on but have not yet cracked. We look like we have finally cracked his interest in sheep and he's now hunting through them, although I still don't 100% trust him. His prey drive is off the scale compared with the HWV. As @McKenzie said, they are unbelievably bloodthirsty.

On the stalking front I've had a bit of pressure to reduce fallow numbers and have had to resort to leaving him in the car until after the shot. He get's so excited by deer (and anything else with fur on it) that it's a bit like stalking with Tigger at the moment, and you can't get away with that on Fallow. Every deer is dragged 100m or so after the shot and I religiously go get the dog for a track every time. His tracking is excellent. Have not managed to successfully hide one from him yet. He is calming down slowly, now 2 1/2 years old. Eventually he will stalk to heel but I think it's still a year off.

In terms of what he's like away from the shooting field he's still a fantastic, loyal, funny fool. Never fails to make me giggle, never leaves my side, great with visitors and children, loves a cuddle. He does bring me my coat when he wants to go out and as a result I don't have many that are left intact or waterproof as he rips them off the hanger - so tears in the fabric, no hang loops left and a few zips been munched - I had to sew the zip up on one this afternoon and turn it into a smock. If I put the coats away in the wardrobe he goes and finds my boots instead. Nothing is safe. He still doesn't like other intact dogs and he wants to shag any that have been castrated. Bitches he's fine with. He's a handful, but I wouldn't be without him.

The HWV was much faster to mature, quicker to train, didn't have the "off the richter scale" pray drive and was overall a much easier dog to live with. On the other hand the GWP is already a much more driven dog on the moor and a better bird finder - he will put more in the bag in a day than the HWV did. I think when we eventually put all the pieces together he will be a better stalking dog too, it will have just taken longer to get there. I might have a different opinion in another years time but I've very much enjoyed the journey with Max so far, although my patience has been well and truly tried.

 

[Cumbrian 1]

Forget about teaching your pup to hunt, he’ll do that himself, get him steady and 100% reliable on the stop and return. At 10 months he’s about where a 6 month old lab would be, they’re slow to mature.
So concentrate on the basics, no game until you’ve got that sorted, you might also contact your local HPR club, they may have puppy and training classes or know of someone that can give you a hand.
From my own experience with HPR’s, deer recovery alone wont keep them entertained, they need more and if you can’t provide it they’ll find it themselves.

Sound advice, walking to heel, recall and stop is so important. My GWP bitch is two and I walk her off the lead three times a day and those three fundamentals are incorporated into each walk every time without thinking.

I also think exposure to hunting is important I.e. the more you can do the steadier they will be, I’ve been very close to deer but touch wood the dog has stayed to heel, I also get the dog to sit when the rifles go onto the sticks without a command.

As far as pointing goes the dog has that ingrained, retrieving certainly needs to be trained into GWPs, I’m lucky that I can normally get out at least once a week from the start of the grouse until the end of Jan to hunt birds. This last season (her second) has been a great success with some memorable points.

Well worth the effort and all the chewed shoes.

 

[Heym SR20]

Having seen the way GWP or Drahteers work on big game on the continent, they behave exactly as they are bred to do. They are big strong dogs that will bring a large wild boar to bay allowing hunters to close and kill it. Nowadays this is usually a wounded one and their job is to find the wounded boar, get hold of it whilst the handler goes in with a boar dagger. They usually run free, albeit these days with a gps collar.

They are a strong and highly intelligent breed that is designed to work on its own and to use its own initiative.

 

[Chasser]

HPR’s are notoriously slow to mature, 10 months is still very young. Try and keep all training fun and make it so they can’t fail but challenging at the same time. Be honest with yourself, often people progress in training when the dog isn’t quite ready, no problem just don’t be scared to go back until
It’s nailed.
Don’t be hard on him, you have to rule HPRs with an iron fist….. in a velvet glove! I have a KG and didn’t have much sense out of him until 12 months +, just nail the fundamentals and the rest will follow!

 

[Sakoodin1]

I wish I could post videos on here,I love my gwp but your right they are a handful if not sorted early. Give them half an inch and they will take a mile. I’m on my 3rd now,I absolutely love them and I’ve had no problems training or recalling them, they do want to work all the time. Perfect for my job! I have a video of the bitch I have now carrying a dead fox back to me at night and I’ve another of the same dog playfully cantering past my son on the drive with a daffodil in her gob as she loves to pluck the flowered daffodils much to my wife’s pleasure as you can imagine

 

[NigelM]

Having seen the way GWP or Drahteers work on big game on the continent, they behave exactly as they are bred to do. They are big strong dogs that will bring a large wild boar to bay allowing hunters to close and kill it. Nowadays this is usually a wounded one and their job is to find the wounded boar, get hold of it whilst the handler goes in with a boar dagger. They usually run free, albeit these days with a gps collar.

They are a strong and highly intelligent breed that is designed to work on its own and to use its own initiative.

There are two (or more) distinct lines of GWP. You are absolutely right on the German bred lines. They are bred for boar and are hard dogs. I've stood on a boar stand and watched 3 GWP's take down and kill an 80kg sow 30 yds away - she came out of the undergrowth with them attached and I couldn't get a shot off. Not a good way to go, but they were very efficient. The other line is the Danish line, more common in the UK through kennels like Bryantscroft, Mustwork and Truvang. They have been specifically bred for bird work and a softer temperament. Having said that it's all relative and a Danish GWP still retains a very high prey drive compared with most other breeds. Mine is from the Danish lines.

 

[yellow belly]

Having 2 GWPs one from dannish lines and the other from German you can tell which is which. The Danish will just stand next to a deer dead or requiring dispatch, and look at me. The German one is full blown engaged in swinging it like a rag doll by the neck, and is a truly hard dog. By comparison the Danish will howl like you've beaten it for misbehaving by just scuffing it to correct it.

 

[Bowland blades]

I would never have another GWP ! The beed in the UK is now all over the place from ones that are not really into work to those that might massacre a rambler for giving them a " funny look " LOL.
I swapped to Well bred labs . They have empathy and are incredibly easy to train just take them out after recall is sorted and they have learned we dont chase stock . Labs BTW are not "Soft " at all they are biddible , My current young dog Took to blood trailing straight off the only training i really did was encouraging the throat hold Two dead beasts and putting him on it and it was ingrained ( we are still working on letting go at the first command LOL ) . Previous one Hated foxes from puppy hood ( milk teeth still in and he ran down a fox , tagged it twice but couldnt hold on . Total accident i was pointing at the thing to alert my daughter . Never formally trained him on deer just took him out when needed , first track and first deer he did good he got what i needed when i went back out with him , he had at that stage picked up a lot or geese that took to running etc but had only been around deer alive i wasn't shooting or by his kennel and of course got vension meals a lot . His last day in the field was on a Fox drive I had to limit id exertion but he was the only dog to flush one and tried his best to catch up . The only dog to locate above ground that day along with quite a few specialist dogs . Miss him a lot , the best all rounder i have ever seen even got into being a medical alert dog spotting seizures a minute or so before they hit in one of my daughters.