Point blank to 300 is an ask of most stalking calibres
Inherently accurate calubres?
- Thread starter finnbear270
- Start date
No, not at all a myth when you get to Benchrest precision levels. It's not just what the cartridge itself can do, but how it interracts with the firearm and the shooter in terms of dynamic stresses and movements on the barreled action, recoil and torque effects etc. As a result, the larger the cartridge the harder it is to consistently produce very small groups. Note consistently. Serious students of rifle precision have less interest in one-off tiny groups than in averages of group series. That's why all BR matches results and league placings use match aggregates (Aggs in the vernacular), actually an average, of the four or five groups shot over the fixture.
As others have said in their posts, the 6PPC has proven not only outstanding, but unbeatable, over what is now 30 plus years in short-distance BR. There have been many attempts to knock it off its perch, but so far none that has managed. If you consider the Remington BR appeared around the same time and was designed to be the ultimate in short-distance precision, it never got off the ground in this role due to an unlucky timing coincidence with the PPC's emergence. Yet, most people would consider the 6mm version of the BR an outstanding precision number, which it is. It's probably just a little too big and over-powered to be top dog in 100/200 yards competition, but it and its improved versions are winners in 600 yard, often 1,000 yd BR too, competition, especially the 'improved' Dasher version. It was confidently predicted that the 6mm wildcat variant of the 6.5X47L would see the Dasher off with just a tad more case capacity and able to hit the next speed node up, but that never happened and many precision shooting experts reckon that's at least partly because any performance / charge weight increase over the Dasher produces more downsides (shooter controllability, recoil management, speed of shot series, barrel movement etc) than the relatively small performance upgrades.
When Remington's 40 series competition rifles from its 'Custom Shop' department were around the best performers money could buy, each rifle was delivered with a target with a benched group proving that the individual rifle performed as advertised. Remington Custom Shop people kept the group records and ended up with many years worth of aggregate rifle and cartridge performance. The smallest average came from 222 Rem chambered examples; the largest from 300 Win Mag examples, and there was a straightforward correlation between cartridge and charge size v groups - bigger the cartridge; bigger the average group.
Also, as a rule, increasing the cartridge capacity to bore area ratio value not only increases barrel wear, but also usually makes it harder to achieve ultimate precision, in particular a lot harder to produce good performing load combinations that behave consistently and with wide 'accuracy nodes'. This appears to be the case with the 6-6.5X47mm Lapua. Necking the 6.5X47mm Lapua down to 6mm increases the ratio from 873 to 1,043. (The 1,000 mark is often reckoned to be the approximate borderline where a cartridge starts to be really hard on firearms.) The 6BR's ratio is 822, and the 6PPC's 717 by comparison. Some people have got the 6-6.5X47L to shoot very well, but many more gave up on it after getting excellent results on some occasions that wouldn't then repeat consistently. It's a very minor player these days in any and all shooting activities.
As to it being simply about rifle build and cartridge preparation, the best example I saw disproving that came from Ken Waters' writings for Rifle and Handloader magazines in his 'Pet Loads' series that ultimately ended in decades of testing and reports and many, many scores of cartridges. Ken dabbled in short-distance benchrest and being around on the scene when the PPC swept the game over a mere two seasons, reckoned it was more to do with fashion and follow the leader than true precision. The top dog prior to the PPCs was the 6X47mm (6mm-222 Rem Mag) and Ken had top BR gunsmith Seely Masker build him a state of the art, no expense spared, bench gun in that chambering, ran it in and undertook a comprehensive load testing and development programme. It shot well, supremely well by most standards. Masker then took the barrel off, set it back a bit and rechambered it for 6PPC. It shot better, much to Ken Waters' surprise and chagrin as he admitted in the features he wrote about this experiment. Tenths of an inch group sizes better in a discipline where thousandths of an inch 'agg' difference often determines the winner and also-rans.
204R is pretty damn good!
In my experience 222, 6.5x55 and 22LR in a bolt action. Of the many rifles I have owned over the years chambered in these cartridges they have always produced good accuracy, except one, a Steyr in 6.5x55 which was useless.
Gamekings I think they were
hybridfiat
Well-Known Member
The US army did some research and decided that the 6.5 was the most inherently accurate caliber but that the 7mm had better energy delivery so a good compromise was the 6.8.
The other was the .338. Hence the only purpose made proprietry sniper round.
The other was the .338. Hence the only purpose made proprietry sniper round.
Don’t forget the importance of highly engineered rings & mounts given of no less fine tolerances than your dream caluber once you find it.
K
K
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
The rifle is the main factor that dictates how accurate it will be, then how precise the ammo has been made.
IMHO you can get any calibre to shoot really accurately if you get a custom barrel put on by a good gunsmith - the tolerances will be just right, unlike a factory rifle that may be slightly off.
Then once you have said rifle, home loading ammo when done very methodically and measuring every possible variable will give brilliant consistency.
Just my opinion on the mater.
Ben
IMHO you can get any calibre to shoot really accurately if you get a custom barrel put on by a good gunsmith - the tolerances will be just right, unlike a factory rifle that may be slightly off.
Then once you have said rifle, home loading ammo when done very methodically and measuring every possible variable will give brilliant consistency.
Just my opinion on the mater.
Ben
The question is inherently accurate calibers -which I take to mean 'chamberings' or cartridges. To just say that it's rifle dependent dismisses the internal ballistics of the cartridge: The powder capacity to bore capacity ratio and physical features of the case such as neck length. There is a reason why so may revered cartridges are built around cases with a capacity similar to the 308, and why several excellent rounds are based on the 7,62x39. And why is it I have never shot an inaccurate 30-40 Krag Jorgensen? (one I left off my list due to obscurity) Regardless of the rifle it was shot from? It's an inherently accurate cartridge.
You can make most rifles shoot well, but some cartridges just seem to want to shoot well. That's the difference.~Muir
.25-06 has always done well from my perspective. Also shot a few .222's and they always seem to shoot well.
That said at deer stalking ranges (sub 300y) I think accuracy is mainly more to do with regular practice, rifle fit and picking something that doesnt kick the snot out of you so you can shoot it well than it is to do with one cartridge vs another.
I do agree at bench rest/ELR distances there probably are some cartridges that are better than others but I know very little about the sport so cant really opine.
That said at deer stalking ranges (sub 300y) I think accuracy is mainly more to do with regular practice, rifle fit and picking something that doesnt kick the snot out of you so you can shoot it well than it is to do with one cartridge vs another.
I do agree at bench rest/ELR distances there probably are some cartridges that are better than others but I know very little about the sport so cant really opine.
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
Or is this due to the fact you will never get a factory 30-40 Krag Jorgensen?
To my mind it is all to do with the tolerances the rifle is built to. When we list all these 'inherently accurate calibres' they tend to be the custom only options, simply because in our experience we have never seen one that shoots badly due to the fact it has been built to small tolerances, whereas some common calibres are less well regarded when it comes to accuracy simply due to the fact we see factory rifles in these calibres that will not match up to the custom counterparts.
Just my opinion.
Ben
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
Apologies, I had wrongly assumed it was a wildcat calibre similar to the Sherman family of cartridges. Having looked it up I retract that comment as I have no experience regarding rifles of that variety, if someone would care to educate me what someone shooting one of those rifles would consider a good group it would be greatly appreciated!
I am happy to be corrected!
All the best,
Ben
I once presented this to a room full of professional deer stalkers/rangers:
Take any commonly used, deer legal cartridge with its most commonly used bullet weight, zero them at 200yds/m.
Then shoot them all at the same target at 300yds/m
Assuming no shooter error you will have a group approximately 3.5-4” in diameter/height
That is the difference in drop between the “flattest” and the not so “flat”
How many of the professional stalkers/rangers put their hands up when I asked how many could confidently say they can hit that 3.5-4” target first time every time at 300yds/m?
If you don’t have your hand up then trajectory is not the thing you should be worrying about.
Because it means you can’t demonstrate the accuracy potential or ballistic advantages of your cartridge
I had a semi custom 6mmBR built by Alan Maughan
I sold it relatively soon after I got it
I genuinely could not do it justice and load development was impossible
Everything I developed was in the 0.2 moa or less range!
I don’t profess to be a bench rest shooter and I quickly realised it was wasted on me!
The PPCs are hard to beat too
You lost me in the translation. Are you talking about trajectory or accuracy? I think I agree with what you are saying but this particular point eludes me. ~Muir
MOA with open sights on a 100 yard (US) NRA Small Bore Target. I have shot maybe 100 Krag Jorgensen rifles (still have a few) , a Model 1895 Winchester, and a couple of single shots. All were better performers than the fool pulling the trigger!~Muir
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
An old friend of mine has an original Winchester 1885 High Wall in 30/40 . It's in amazing condition and , on the rare occasions he does shoot it , it will shoot into one MOA ............. it's not for sale , I asked .......... a lot .
AB
