Pellet Pinger
Well-Known Member
I highlighted the fact that the voluntary switch to non lead has failed and given the antis fuel to show the shooting community in an even worse light and you want thanks?
Lead update.
- Thread starter gixer1
- Start date
Conor, what you did not get during the five year voluntary transition was the support of the cartridge manufacturers and importers, possibly because you did not engage with them prior to the announcement.
What you needed was for them to totally stop making and selling lead shot cartridges in shot sizes bigger than u.k. 7.5, 2.3mm. Thus making for all but a few, all live quarry cartridges non toxic and yes with single use plastic wads until they could be replaced with biodegradable wads.
But that would probably have been financial suicide for the them to have done so, so now to bring an end to all the negative publicity of using lead shot a legal ban is seen as necessary. including clay shooting, which even the scientists are not calling for, but the HSE has concluded we cannot be trusted if lead shot continues to be sold.
What you needed was for them to totally stop making and selling lead shot cartridges in shot sizes bigger than u.k. 7.5, 2.3mm. Thus making for all but a few, all live quarry cartridges non toxic and yes with single use plastic wads until they could be replaced with biodegradable wads.
But that would probably have been financial suicide for the them to have done so, so now to bring an end to all the negative publicity of using lead shot a legal ban is seen as necessary. including clay shooting, which even the scientists are not calling for, but the HSE has concluded we cannot be trusted if lead shot continues to be sold.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Again, there is no 'switch' or cliff edge, there is a voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry and that continues. There is no lead ban and that is thanks to BASC and that goes back decades and if you don't wish to acknowledge that then that is your choice, just as continuing to use lead shot remains your choice. You might find the following article by Colin Shedden helpful in case you missed it first time around:
Lead Shot: A Historical Reflection
In this blog, BASC Scotland director, Dr Colin Shedden, explores BASC’s long-standing involvement with lead shot and how the policy and science has evolved over the years.
basc.org.uk
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
What an i.....
When lead was used as make up it was lead oxide.
Lead oxide unlike the metal lead easily can enter the body and blood stream. Unlike the metal lead.
For all the hot air and blustery by a certain gentleman here he actually sounds like a double agent! He never answers awkward questions but rebuffs with spurious questions!
He'll be prime minister one day!
When lead was used as make up it was lead oxide.
Lead oxide unlike the metal lead easily can enter the body and blood stream. Unlike the metal lead.
For all the hot air and blustery by a certain gentleman here he actually sounds like a double agent! He never answers awkward questions but rebuffs with spurious questions!
He'll be prime minister one day!
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
The voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting continues. Manufacturers have been supportive and responding to demand and continue to do so, developing new and practical alternatives and nearly every major shotgun cartridge manufacturer is now producing a non-lead cartridge. Given your views and suggestions, maybe you could come along to a future BASC sustainable shooting event and talk to some of the manufacturer reps present?
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events.basc.org.uk
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Thanks. BASC has been making those arguments to the HSE - ie. "there is a shortage in the supply of components such as powder. This issue has been brought on by the war in Ukraine. Military ammunition uses the same double based powders as some steel shot cartridges and the military have a priority over supplies, leaving domestic ammunition to utilise what is left."
See the following document for more detail on BASC's arguments around this.
Pellet Pinger
Well-Known Member
Are you deliberately going off on a tangent to avoid acknowledging my original post? Lead ban or not, cliff edge etc was nothing i mentioned or eluded to. I don’t need to thank BASC or read historical self back slapping articles.Again, there is no 'switch' or cliff edge, there is a voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry and that continues. There is no lead ban and that is thanks to BASC and that goes back decades and if you don't wish to acknowledge that then that is your choice, just as continuing to use lead shot remains your choice. You might find the following article by Colin Shedden helpful in case you missed it first time around:
Lead Shot: A Historical Reflection
In this blog, BASC Scotland director, Dr Colin Shedden, explores BASC’s long-standing involvement with lead shot and how the policy and science has evolved over the years.
The purpose of my post was to add some perspective to the self proclaimed success of the voluntary transition to non lead by highlighting the fact that the antis have used a proposal spear headed by BASC and used it to their own gain.
This was apparent in the Radio 4 broadcast, how do you judge the BASC response to a well presented case involving the statistics of pheasants with lead on that program?
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Thanks. Not sure why you are banging on about lead in make-up. That's got nothing to do with the HSE review of lead in ammunition under post-Brexit regulations. The HSE review of hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up is a separate review, also under the post-Brexit regulations - it has been looking at several thousands substance in that regard. There has already been an EU review and restriction. Click the link below for information.
Tattoo inks and permanent make-up - ECHA
echa.europa.eu
The voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting continues. Manufacturers have been supportive and responding to demand and continue to do so, developing new and practical alternatives and nearly every major shotgun cartridge manufacturer is now producing a non-lead cartridge. Given your views and suggestions, maybe you could come along to a future BASC sustainable shooting event and talk to some of the manufacturer reps present?
Home
GSC1 Online Assessments Want to improve your knowledge of game shooting? Book your course All upcoming events
not quite what I said, every major shotgun cartridge manufacturer was already making non toxic cartridges before the start of the voluntary transition, for export and u.k. use by wildfowlers. Yes they had to look at away forward with biodegradable wads after the transition announcement.
However the problem was the majority of game shooters continued to use lead shot, they never made the transition and shoots never enforced it or policed it. Even the non toxic shoot game registration process collapsed.
Cartridge manufacturers continued to make live quarry lead shot cartridges even introducing new versions as did the importers.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
If you wish to reinvent history in your own mind that is your choice but the fact is that BASC has been successfully fighting lead bans for decades. Here is the Farming Today interview (05:18 onwards) for those yet to listen to it and you have asked for my opinion of it and I think BASC came across much better than the other interviewee.
Farming Today - 10/03/25 - Lead shot and agricultural contractors - BBC Sounds
The phase-out of lead shot and why it doesn't seem to be happening.
www.bbc.co.uk
Of course those long seeking a lead ammunition ban are not happy with the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry and from day one have been seeking to undermine it - they have seen it as us further kicking the can down the road. They were also unhappy about the HSE review in 2021 for the same reasons. They are not happy with the HSE recommendations for a 5 year transition away from lead shot for live quarry - they want it to be 18 months. They will now be unhappy that Defra has not caved into their pressure for a decision by 13 March which was the focus of a campaign by WWT, RSPB, Wildlife and Countryside Link, CHEM Trust and Wild Justice.
And amidst all this you are grumbling about a voluntary transition when you have the freedom to continue using lead shot if you wish.
Let's go further back. A decade and more before the voluntary transition initiated those seeking a lead ban used non-compliance with the lead shot regulations as a reason for lead ammunition to be banned. They then moved from arguments about impacts on birds to health concerns for people as a more emotive argument. The 2014 Oxford symposium Home – The Oxford Lead Symposium had a stark image of exposure pathways from lead shot game to pregnant women and children. Most recently there was a WWT video featuring babies and puppies in support of a lead ban within 18 months.
Here is a timeline of events from the WWT:
How did we get here? The campaign to ban lead ammunition
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
B
Biodegradable wads were also being produced before the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry began. Here is a snippet from 2020 "Recent technological developments have made non-lead shot more effective, more widely available and more affordable. Equally, biodegradable wads are now a possibility. These advances are continuing apace and it is now time for the wider live quarry shooting community to join the wildfowlers, who have used non-lead alternatives successfully for the last 20 years."
Pellet Pinger
Well-Known Member
Again, you completely miss my point and repeat yourself.
Regarding the interview, no surprises there.
yes and no , from memory it was only the water soluble type made in Spain that Eley introduced into the U.K. market possibly Bioammo also had something and the gamebore card tube type. But credit to the transition initiative, it resulted in the likes of the earth wads, green core wads, paper tube wads and Hull hydro wads and game bore making theirs in the u.k. But not all are created equal as regards to how long they take to degrade in the open u.k. countryside environment.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
I don't think so, I think you are perhaps entrenched in your views and thus ignoring my answers. That's fine with me, it is what it is.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
I distinctly remember this winter a few chaps coming and buying thousands of cartridges explaining clearly in their words that no one is going to tell them what to shoot from their guns. I helped them load their vehicles and they had basic stickers in the window!
I've asked several shop owner's over recent years how the transition was going, everyone of them said it isn't happening from what they can see!
They all had basic stickers in the window!
It's a croc, any claim of basic of fighting against a lead ban is an outright lie. The truth is basic has tried to spuriously back pedal and gloat over some success in their back peddling for example to get certain proposed restrictions lifted hoping it mitigates their years of capitulation on the subject of lead ammunition before their peers, not them they claim to represent no but those in office and their pr men!
In all honesty one could easily be mislead into believing they are simply in it for their own ends!
Just another bunch of hoohars that think they can fool the masses but just keep scoring own goals.
I mean why oh why didn't they jump on the fact that it is perfectly legal to cover a roof in lead and any water run off contaminated with lead oxides that enter the water supply times by millions is perfectly okay but lead shot is wrong I'll never know! Unless of course this organisation is one that readily automatically assumes a certain position before those it truly fears!
What a croc....
I've asked several shop owner's over recent years how the transition was going, everyone of them said it isn't happening from what they can see!
They all had basic stickers in the window!
It's a croc, any claim of basic of fighting against a lead ban is an outright lie. The truth is basic has tried to spuriously back pedal and gloat over some success in their back peddling for example to get certain proposed restrictions lifted hoping it mitigates their years of capitulation on the subject of lead ammunition before their peers, not them they claim to represent no but those in office and their pr men!
In all honesty one could easily be mislead into believing they are simply in it for their own ends!
Just another bunch of hoohars that think they can fool the masses but just keep scoring own goals.
I mean why oh why didn't they jump on the fact that it is perfectly legal to cover a roof in lead and any water run off contaminated with lead oxides that enter the water supply times by millions is perfectly okay but lead shot is wrong I'll never know! Unless of course this organisation is one that readily automatically assumes a certain position before those it truly fears!
What a croc....
If you are going to take the proverbial, do it correctly…….. it’s BASC
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
Are you sure about that?
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
It was sarcasm....
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