new rifle/scope

[devilishdave]

Long Range

mmhhh seems like i have opened a can of worms about long range deer shots and most people seem to be against it and yet the americans /canadians seem to think nothing of it why is that? if it is so difficult maybe i should drop the idea as i now feel a bit dissulussioned with it

I think the reason us Brits tend to be against long range shooting is because at beyond 200m the likely hood of injuring a deer increses exponentialy. Perhaps the risk of that does not bother the americans or canadians as much as it does most British stalkers.

Dave

 

[JAYB]

This is an old chestnut that never really seem's to go away. It always comes back to an "us and them type of scenario", which I don't think is strictly true. For the majority of British stalkers getting as close as you can is the name of the game, and for a lot of American hunters it is the same. They may not stalk as much as we do, but they do try to entice the Deer in close to their stand or hide or whatever they are using, no different to a high seat really. The really long range stuff is the domain of the specialist, who uses specialist equipment and has recieved the correct training. There are people who can, and do, on a regular basis harvest game at long range. It does not appeal to me personaly, but the fact is they exist.

The trouble seem's to start when a shooter decides he wants to become a long range shooter, and more than that a long range hunter. Without the specialist training and equipment. The chances of success at paper are pretty hit and miss, as for game at the longer distances, well for my money it is a non starter with badly shot game facing a lingering death, being an all too frequent occurance.

So really my way of looking at it is, it's the rifleman and their perception of their ability that is the deciding factor, not their nationality. This of course is just my opinion.

John

 

[MarkH]

Here is some practice you can do.

Go out onto a very safe piece of ground and put up an 4" target on a light/moderatly breezy day witha x wind. Walk back 250m and take the shot using the bipod but no rear bag lying on a nice hard piece of rock. Remember the first shot is the only one that counts and it must be in the circle. No grouping. Once the shot is taken go back and check then return reset your rig up and shoot another cold barrel shot 10 m further forward or back or to the side and see how consistent your groupings are.

Mark

 

[270TOMMY]

hi markh,those bullets look good and seem kind on the carcass are they widely available i use german copper hp and find them superb im going to try a box of those if i can get hold of some in 270cal

 

[300wsm]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Kent]

The truth is most deer calibre rifles are about 3 MOA low at 300yds. the problem is not only that your elevation will change some due to wind and its effect on the landscape 1/2 moa either way ie 1MOA total approx 1 1/2" at 300. But also the wind can take you sideways also- for example a 10mph correction at 90 degrees with a 155 grn high B.C lapua scenar match bullet traveling at very close to 2900 fps is 1.8 MOA this is going on for 6" but if you release between gusts it will be nil !

Now consider without fine correction you are shooting 6" to one side and 1/2" off on hight- this is without ranging error or compensating for up / downhill shooting, and it assumes your aim is perfect.

Shooting 300yds f-class the other week only one guy "got a key ring" award made for a first sighter v bull. This is using 7mm boo boo / 6.5 x 284 etc,etc shooting from rear bag and front rest prone. the v bull is just under 3" by the way


After two free sighters nobody got a clear round of v bulls only.

in the field we are wet, cold, hot exited, tired have a rock digging in our ribs and are a bit out of puff. Alied to all these handicaps the deer might step forwards or twitch as we release our shot

the balistic tables might tell you such a shot is ok but out in the field when you miss judge a wind and allow for reduction in accuraccy there is only one result your wounding rate will rise

 

[Kent]

hey for those who wish to know a few facts on calibre comparisoms for long range ie "Too blooming far" shots here is the low down.

I used noslers own figures for thier balistic tip and the appropriate weight for calibre- ignooring small fractions of an inch and working off high end speeds

.300 WSM 150grn as recomended by mr WSM himself 3200 fps

.308" Win with the same bullet 2900 fps

.270 win 130grn 3100 fps (the highlanders favourite for years )

6.5 x 284 120grn 3100 fps

Based on a 100 yds zero 1.5" bore to scope

.300WSM 9" low

.308" 12" low

.270 10" low

6.5 x 284 well practically same as .270" !

They all need another 15" or so of extra hold for 300- 400yds

one should expect that the long range shooter selected a 200yds zero

and the figures then show


.300WSM 6" low @ 300

.308" 7" low @ 300

.270" 6" low @ 300

personally if i was irresponsible enough to shoot at 400yds i should choose a .308" as i think the extra life i could get out of a barrel might be needed due to the increased number of shots i would be forced to take to finish wounders. for hunting puposes there is no real advantage in accuraccy on any of these that could make me change my mind on taking a long shot - if we are talking pure ability to group well 6mm BR has to be top choice up to 500yds and that is a real hard calibre to make English legal due to lack of Ft lbs

Wizz bang blam - but in the end it's the man that can !

 

[paul k]

I have always believed that the sport was deer stalking not deer shooting and if anything I was too conservative with ranges, almost never taking a shot at over 150 yards. Although a member of the school rifle shooting team in the past given the responsibility to make a clean kill I suffered from a little lack of confidence at longer ranges although I had never actually missed a shot.

I was taken out for a play by a friend who is a ballistics nut and home loads everything himself. He is so precise that he gets a batch of ammo down to a range of 9 fps in velocity. He is an excellent shot and goes hind culling in Scotland and, with a moderated rifle in a good position, can do a major part of the hind cull at ranges out to 400 metres or more without moving.

He set up a 22-250 metal "snipers" rifle complete with moderator and bipod, put two fox targets out at an undisclosed range but a very long way away.

After testing the wind strength and direction with his anemometer then sitting down with his range finder, ballistics charts and then adjusting the sights, after ten minutes he pronounced the rifle as ready to shoot.

He took two shots at the right hand target and then invited me to take two shots at the left hand target. He then passed me the range finder and I was staggered to find that the range was 720 metres. We then shot a few more rounds at pigeon and rabbit targets set at about 600 metres.

When we went to pick up the targets I was thrilled to find that I had put my two shots in "killing" positions on the fox and had hit most of the pigeons.

We then swapped rifles for his then brand new .17HR and we were knocking the heads off dandelions at 150 metres.

What did this experience tell me? My confidence increased massively and I did feel able to take longer shot than before but I would still not consider taking a shot at a deer at much over 250 yards. I think you owe it to the quarry to get as close as possible and, let's be honest, that's the real buzz in deer stalking.

 

[MarkH]

If this works check this guys experience with long range hunting.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5421043/m/825109477?r=977100577#977100577

Its a classic example of taking the shot and working the consequences afterwards. Reduce the distance 100m or go home to the bar or make sure the beast isnt going to drop off the cliff and become mush and remain inaccessible as raven food before pulling the trigger.

However good a 7 08 rifle with 162 gn bullets are is its not a long range bullet especially if you are not familiar with shooting it out to 500 yds uphill in a wind.

We all take stupid shots over time the trick is to learn from the mistake

Mark

 

[Thar]

If you want to take up long range shooting then before you start thinking about what rifle and what cartridge you want to use invest in a deer dog (if you don’t already have one) because if you did not need one before you will once you start shooting at longer range. Remember there is far more chance of a wound that a total miss. So 2/3 years to fully train a dog so if you start now in 12 months you can put your order in for a top rifle from one of the better riflesmiths and in 2 years you will be set.

Then you need a good mate to spot for you when you take the shot, so he can with the aid of walky talkies direct you to were the deer will have gone down or just as likely were you will find some gut contents or bone fragments from a leg shot. Now you need your dog.

The mate will be good for giving you a hand in carrying out the shooting bench and 14lb rifle you will need as well.








OK OK the above post is a bit tongue in cheek but only a bit. You get the idea.

Best rgds

Thar

 

[MarkH]

Just did a fag packet calculation and that 7mm bullet had about 153 cm drop on a cold barrel 22 deg upwards 420m shot.

Interesting

PS I can supply the tracking dogs but you probably know that already


Mark

 

[Thar]

Get to the back of the queue I have a proper deer dog you can help carry the bench rest table.

Best rgds

Thar

 

[MarkH]

Dont you find the powder blows around a bit and the scales dont settle when you take the reloading bench out with you

Mark

 

[Thar]

Dont you find the powder blows around a bit and the scales dont settle when you take the reloading bwench out with you

Mark

They should be a warning on this site "do not post and drink"

Best rgds

Thar

 

[MarkH]

Great this edit function.

 

[SteveOh]

lol @ Marks editing skills....

 

[sikamalc]

There are no Estates I deal with, nor would I allow anyone to shoot deer at 450yds an any of my leases

300 win mags are to much gun for the UK, why would anyone want to try and shoot deer at stupid ranges. Wound a Red deer for instance at this range, and I for one can tell you by the time you have covered the 400yds or so to where the deer was, it will be over the top of a 300ft hill and gone, and by the time you get to the top of that you will probably find nothing but SCOTLAND.

My advice would be to get a good dog, you will need one if you are attempting to shoot deer at stupid distances!! because you will wound a loose a lot more deer, and you will also find yourself not being invited back.

Sorry for the direct words but it needs pointing out.

 

[Pete E]

Deleted by User

 

[SteveOh]

I thought the idea was to get as close to the buggers as possible... hence the name "Stalking"

 

[MarkH]

I thought we were going to shoot then not bugger them