Red dot/Reflex sight on a combo gun thoughts

[JMikeyH]

I'm toying around with a short-range gun which is a .308/12B Baikal Combination. I love it. It's short and pointy, lightweight and a dream to shoot. One issue I'm having is with the irons as they are blade and post style it is quite difficult to keep them aligned when wing shooting as my front hand has a tendency to swing faster than my body follows which then throws out the alignment. On static targets this is no problem because you generally have lots of time to ensure it's all lined up correctly. But in fast-action jump shooting on a bumped woody, rabbit etc. it is quite a hinderance.

I don't THINK I want a scope on there for two reasons.

1. The gun has an integral 11mm Dovetail rail and my requirements of rings is that they obviously fit the 11mm dovetail, are low, preferably quick-detach etc. It's quite a lot of criteria to tick and on top of all this I'm not 100% sure I could get a strong enough mating on an 11mm dovetail for a hard-kicking, lightweight .308 - perhaps the more knowledgeable on here could inform me if this is the case
2. I want to retain the use of the shotgun of course, and I can't picture myself using a shotgun well with a scope even if it is a long eye relief, 1.5x-4x type scope. Again, maybe the more informed people on here could offer their opinions.

This leads me down to the reflex sight/red dot option. First of all would it be offensive to put a very modern class of optic onto a very classic-style combination gun? Secondly is it going to be much better than the irons, worth the cost and removing the majority of the alignment issue on moving game?

I have absolutely zero hands-on experience with reflex or red dot sights. Please note that this will have to fit an 11mm dovetail which I assume is fine for a lightweight sight such as these.

Thoughts?

Cheers

 

[09mutley05]

Burris fast fire should be able to mount onto the rail

 

[Koenig]

The vortex venom would likely fit your needs.

 

[Sash]

Dont be put off by the 11mm dovetail: I have a Baikal double in 9.3x74R, and have a 1-4x20 Leupold on it, in Optilocks.
They hold very tight (at sensible torques) and, if you have the forward ring base up against the dovetail taper, there is no risk of loss of zero. Other 11mm scope rings also have a screw to tighten directly vertically onto the dovetail.

I also have a scope on my Brno Combi (.222/12 bore). I sort of accepted the tradeoff of poorer wing shooting vs better medium-range rifle shooting: its my fox/muntjac rifle. But I am interested by your reflex sight thoughts.....

 

[JMikeyH]

Dont be put off by the 11mm dovetail: I have a Baikal double in 9.3x74R, and have a 1-4x20 Leupold on it, in Optilocks.
They hold very tight (at sensible torques) and, if you have the forward ring base up against the dovetail taper, there is no risk of loss of zero. Other 11mm scope rings also have a screw to tighten directly vertically onto the dovetail.

I also have a scope on my Brno Combi (.222/12 bore). I sort of accepted the tradeoff of poorer wing shooting vs better medium-range rifle shooting: its my fox/muntjac rifle. But I am interested by your reflex sight thoughts.....

Out to 100m, maybe further with a 2-3 MOA red dot should be no bother at all. I am pretty close to purchasing and I'll let you know how it goes if I do get one

 

[Heym SR20]

Firstly with wing shooting you will get know where trying to use the sights like a rifle. Most combo's the rear sight folds out of the way. Focus on the beak of the bird, keep both eyes open and swing through and squeeze as you swing through. Trying to use the sight's just messes with the brain and stops the swing.

Little red dot sights are very light, can be mounted very low and in many ways are perfect for doubles and combination guns as the do not upset any balance etc. And still good enough to shoot out 100+ yards if need be.

 

[scrumbag]

I've played around with reflex sights a fair bit

I have a reflex sight on my 9.3x62 boar rifle



I have also got a Burris Fastfire on my Benelli Supernova

Which I mainly use for slugs at turning targets I have shot clays with the red dot still on. It's doable but for choice I would got without. (To be fair only tried a couple of times so might get better - first time was disastrous, second not so bad).

I have a little cheapy red dot that I use on my .22lr for the running boar target which mimics my 9.3 x 62. The mount fits onto the dovetail on my Brno .22lr and is QD.

The mount is made by Recknagel and costs about ~£75 from Alan Rhone ("prismen" is the type you want).



The one piece of advice I would give is, if you go for a reflex sight, get one that is a Docter / Noblex footprint. More mounts and sights are made with that footprint by more manufacturers than any other giving you the most flexibility / options.

Any questions please don't hesitate to ask.

Scrummy

 

[Oh6]

Firstly with wing shooting you will get know where trying to use the sights like a rifle. Most combo's the rear sight folds out of the way. Focus on the beak of the bird, keep both eyes open and swing through and squeeze as you swing through. Trying to use the sight's just messes with the brain and stops the swing.

Well that saves me a bit of typing!
If you are wing shooting, you don't even want to be aware of the sights on the gun, all your focus should be on the target. If you look back to the sights, the gun will stop and you'll miss behind.

 

[JMikeyH]

Well that saves me a bit of typing!
If you are wing shooting, you don't even want to be aware of the sights on the gun, all your focus should be on the target. If you look back to the sights, the gun will stop and you'll miss behind.

Am I using a shotgun wrong too then?

I'm always aiming with the bead on my shotgun... Do alright with that but it's a much easier mount and sight to use for wing shooting

 

[Heym SR20]

You can certainly use a telescopic sight or Red dot to shoot moving target. The trick is to follow the target with both eyes open and then mount looking through the scope at the target - again keeping both eyes open. By looking through I mean keep the focus on the target not on the reticle, and then swing the dot or the reticle through the target and squeeze.

Where people go wrong - and you see this all the time even on stationary targets is people look in the scope as if it is a screen and try to move the reticle onto the target in the same focal plane. The same with binoculars or any optic. Instead keep both eyes on target and put the scope or binoculars into your line of view. Gun fit is important and when the gun mounts it should be on target. If you have to adjust your head to see a full reticle you to adjust the stock, or position of the scope.

Red dots are in many ways easier as parallex is less of an issue - they pretty much hit where the red dot is, regardless of where you are looking from. And when quick shooting don't over think it - gun up, bang is the way to go.

I haven't shot many running big game, but spent some time on the running boar range with a rifle, and in the UK bolting rabbit clays with the shot barrel of the combination. Once you get dialed in its amazing how consistently you can hit a running boar target and keeping the bullets in the kill zone. You can do it even with the scope dialed up - I did my first shooting test and shot my first boar with a 6x scope. Much the best to keep a bit forward and concentrate on its eye, rather than the whole body. Your eye will naturally go to the middle of an object - look at the pig as a whole target and you will put a bullet in the guts, look at its eye and bullet will go in its head / shoulder. This is also the reason why when you get a flock of duck or pigeons and you think you can't miss. Well your eye naturally leads to the space between them - and thats where the shot goes and they all fly away. Pick out the beak of the duck you want to shoot and kill that. Then pick out another and kill that.

I was taught to shoot by the late Brian Edrich - one of the Edrich cricketing brothers and he gave me the above advice about ducks when I was young. He was a fantastic shot, and I saw him take five duck with an old savage 5 shot semi auto - all dead before the first one hit the ground. He learnt to shoot as the son of a Norfolk farmer and then as a Spitfire pilot in WW2 - he said he used that just like a shotgun as well.

 

[Heym SR20]

Am I using a shotgun wrong too then?

I'm always aiming with the bead on my shotgun... Do alright with that but it's a much easier mount and sight to use for wing shooting

The bead is just there to show you if you have a good gun mount and gun fit. Bead should be in middle of rib and you should see about 0.75 to 1cm of rib below the bead. If you have a good gun mount and it shoots where you look, then look at the bird.

 

[JMikeyH]

The bead is just there to show you if you have a good gun mount and gun fit. Bead should be in middle of rib and you should see about 0.75 to 1cm of rib below the bead. If you have a good gun mount and it shoots where you look, then look at the bird.

I've got more to learn than I thought lol. Some shotgun tutoring may be in order

 

[Oh6]

I've got more to learn than I thought lol. Some shotgun tutoring may be in order

You could certainly do a lot worse, than spend any money you might have spent on a reflex or red dot sight, on a shotgun shooting lesson or two instead

Worth getting a recommendation for a good instructor though.

 

[Heym SR20]

You could certainly do a lot worse, than spend any money you might have spent on a reflex or red dot sight, on a shotgun shooting lesson or two instead

Worth getting a recommendation for a good instructor though.

agreed - trouble is most instructors now focus on sporting competition clay shooting rather than game shooting.

There are two principle types of shooting.

Rifle - which should involve time, precision and calculated breathing - and trap shooting has a lot of similarities

Which is very very different to

Game shooting with a shotgun which is much more akin to hitting a fast ball with a bat or racquet and is all about hand eye coordination and muscle memory. And the same principles apply to using a rifle on fast moving big animals - thats why a double rifle handles like a fine double shotgun.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

First of all would it be offensive to put a very modern class of optic onto a very classic-style combination gun?

Secondly is it going to be much better than the irons, worth the cost and removing the majority of the alignment issue on moving game?

1. Who would be offended? Why would you take any notice if somebody if somebody is offended? Do what you like and what you want.

2. Yes I find a Red Dot sight on a shotgun and an a deer rifle is great. I use a Burris Fastfire 11 on a p/a 20G shotgun (love it, but not suitable if you go an a smart Game shoot - traditionalist will have a heart attack and raised blood pressure, but it is not illegal); and an Aimpoint 'Hunter' S34 Red Dot sight on a .308W, for deer/boar. (Love it, great for daytime/close in hunting). The Burris Fastfire would also work perfectly fine on a combi rifle and is a bit better priced than the Aimpoint, which is about as good as a Red Dot gets.

 

[09mutley05]

Scope or red dot