Second Hand Rifles - some thoughts

[Pedro]

But on the other hand....

There's those sort of people that take up hobbies and they pretty soon fall by the wayside to be replaced by something else. All the gear and no idea folks. They're everywhere. On the golf course with the best rackets (or whatever they call them) and clothes. On the pheasant shoots, with the best tweed, wellies and an overly expensive gun. And stalking or target shooting is just the same. There are out there rifles, a few years old bought new by a prospective stalker who has gone on two or three paid outings and then the rifle has sat lonely in the cabinet until it's renewal time and then the owner cuts their losses and sells the rifle because by that time, his hard earned is paying for his latest, newest hobby. Cue a very good rifle with probably south of 30 rounds ever put through it.

The problem though is recognising them. You really need an RFD you can totally trust or someone that can tell that lemon from that really good example. It's not fool proof because an old dog can be tarted up, woodwork spruced up and metalwork maybe re-blacked or whatever. As always, buying second hand is always a risk. But it can pay handsomely. They are out there....

 

[enfieldspares]

But on the other hand....

On the golf course with the best rackets (or whatever they call them) and clothes.

Golf sticks I think is the name for these things? And "silly trousers". But "racket" is about right for a sport where the shop that sells them will charge you the price of two gloves anywhere else yet when you get to open the packet you've just paid for there's only one inside.

 

[Overlay]

sticks sticks
the only sticks I get to see is the one the wife beats me across the buttocks with when I buy another obsolete rifle the wounds are healing a bit now though - until the next time, apparently i’m a bit slow taking things on board in regards to buying another load of trash

only joking of course. my wife wouldn’t do that really - cos i’ve hidden all the sticks up

 

[Dhindes]

Interesting discussion. All the rifles I have ever bought were second hand. Holts, direct and from Egun in Germany. All were good makes, all had good scopes and all had good mounts. Paid from 1000GBP down to 100. Only one was not great - shot OK but I did not like the trigger. Sold for what I paid for it. Scopes are often worth more than the rifle and I enjoy trying differ types. Best was a Danish Jensen with Ziess Victory scope. Is my go to 9.3mm boar gun.

 

[25 Sharps]

Blimey just posted a pearl of wisdom that was told to me years ago by a gunsmith on another thread, but the gist of it is that if a rifle is not accurate it's pretty worthless. So Caveat Emptor and all that.

Twice you’ve said that now, so second time I have to disagree, if it’s a decent action you have the value of the action as a donor plus the stock.

So a tikka T3 around £250-350, sako 75 £350 -450 is etc.

Even less popular actions like an CZ527 leaving the action out of it you could strip for parts and sell magazine, trigger group, non pressure bearing bolt parts and probably recover your money or make a profit on some secondhand rifles. I’ve done it in the past with rimfires!

Worth less maybe but certainly not worthless!

 

[25 Sharps]

You can even find very old rifles that haven't done much at all. I know a fair few folks who dont put a box of twenty through their rifles - Per Anum !
IF Its only the Barrel though ...? a new barrel on a good action and stock can work out a better rifle than an equivalent cost new rifle and dont get me going but many rifles just aint as well designed or made than they once where. Look at Tikka with their one size fits all actions ( just put a plug in the back) Now ! Yet the 595 was made with a metal drop box mag , action suited to each cartridge class .

Eh? The 595 action was one size fits all? As in .308 and .223 sized cartridges with the 695 for 30-06.

 

[Trigger260]

Only ever bought one second hand rifle and it was a dog! Never again, unless off a pal and I knew the history.

 

[gixer1]

Bought a fair few second hand rifles, I usually use general condition as a guide (bolt handle wear, scratches to coating/stock) and been pretty lucky - bought one rifle simply because I knew the guy had bought it for an African hunting trip, used it about 4 times to zero and the trip and then sold it on! Result! Nearly new 30/06 for a much lower cost.

Most second hand rifles will be fine for “minute of deer” and I did but a weatherby once that didn’t seem to shoot under 3” groups but I wonder now if that was as much me as the rifle.

I am in the process of trying to buy a Martini Henry at the moment and am wondering if I’m being too picky but you hear horror stories with them so am just a bit cautious.

Regards,
Gixer

 

[Bo Diddley]

Twice you’ve said that now, so second time I have to disagree, if it’s a decent action you have the value of the action as a donor plus the stock.

So a tikka T3 around £250-350, sako 75 £350 -450 is etc.

Even less popular actions like an CZ527 leaving the action out of it you could strip for parts and sell magazine, trigger group, non pressure bearing bolt parts and probably recover your money or make a profit on some secondhand rifles. I’ve done it in the past with rimfires!

Worth less maybe but certainly not worthless!

In my defense, it was said to me 40 years ago before it was trendy to have rifles re-barreled and customized. But I still think it's too much hassle for the average shooter. Most want to pick a new Tikka/Sako off the shelf have a scope/mod fitted and rock out of the door ready to go. Agreed everything has some value, even if it takes a bit of work to extract it sometimes.

 

[DavyG]

Good luck with that!

Best

K

If I can’t “try it” before I “buy it”…I’ll just leave it. Less hassle for me.
DG

 

[User00053]

Never really chased accuracy in terms of developing loads which is science/ hobby in itself nor had a serious interest in target shooting though do like pretty rifles with beauty in eye of beholder so to speak.
Bought both new and used and all shot well enough to shoot what I wanted and when though out to 300 yards ish but would not wanted to shoot tight groups on paper with some or compete even in fun.

 

[harrygrey382]

Twice you’ve said that now, so second time I have to disagree, if it’s a decent action you have the value of the action as a donor plus the stock.

So a tikka T3 around £250-350, sako 75 £350 -450 is etc.

Even less popular actions like an CZ527 leaving the action out of it you could strip for parts and sell magazine, trigger group, non pressure bearing bolt parts and probably recover your money or make a profit on some secondhand rifles. I’ve done it in the past with rimfires!

Worth less maybe but certainly not worthless!

100%. My most recent purchase I bought primarily for the action (FN commercial), but also I considered the trigger (Sako #4) and stock (a solid if slightly plain walnut) when negotiating the price. I couldn’t care less how it shoots because I’ll be putting the 243 barrel straight in the scrap pile - probably to be cut up into various spacers for random projects.

 

[User00040]

Brand name is important, and brands that are still in existence will add further value.

Wrong on both counts.

 

[Bo Diddley]

100%. My most recent purchase I bought primarily for the action (FN commercial), but also I considered the trigger (Sako #4) and stock (a solid if slightly plain walnut) when negotiating the price. I couldn’t care less how it shoots because I’ll be putting the 243 barrel straight in the scrap pile - probably to be cut up into various spacers for random projects.

Sounds like you have the necessary skills and the inclination to undertake this work yourself, so a rifle with a shot-out barrel will have some worth to folks such as yourself as you have said. Out of curiosity how many folks do you think go down this route every year? I would imagine it's quite a small marketplace, especially in a constricted market as we have in the UK.

 

[ChesterP]

My own experience is that most of the used rifles I've looked at in gun shops, not all, but most, I wouldn't risk, at least not beyond the value of the action.

Any used rifle I buy would take into account the cost of re-barreling. Whilst you rarely get to shoot any used rifle for sale unless from someone you know, you can check the condition of the action and general rifle condition and decide if it's for you or not. There are places with their own ranges that are happy for rifles to be test shot though.

I don't agree that all used rifles are for sale because they're clapped out. Many will be, granted and I've seen many well over 20 years old which clearly have led productive lives. However there will always be rifles sold because the user has lost interest, moved onto the next best thing or simply fancied a change and I've come across some very good used rifles for sale, some almost looking like new. They often hold their values well too.

In terms of accuracy, I've never considered a 3moa rifle as anywhere near adequate except perhaps for close in woodland stalking where ranges tend to be low, perhaps 30-100m. You've been able to buy factory rifles for the past few decades now that are genuine moa rifles, and given the choice, why wouldn't you want an accurate rifle? It seems an odd thing to reject improvements in manufacturing because we used to mange with less and I've appreciated how that's enabled things like longer range vermin control to be humanely undertaken where perhaps it was more literally hit or miss years back. As for shooter skills, well we all know what our own limitations are so I wouldn't comment on what others claim. For me, I'm happy in field conditions to achieve anything close to moa on a good day but have in the past bettered this when shooting prone over longer distances up to 450m. I rarely shoot past this because chances of a less humane kill increase dramatically but a lot depends on quarry, topography and weather conditions as well as the quality of set up and loads. Deer have a tendency to move and frequently move their heads looking or smelling for risks so I would never consider shooting past 250 to 300m because of this alone. If I can't stalk closer, I'll usually not take the shot and not because I'm not a competent shot.

 

[Skinny78]

Wrong on both counts.

Brands in general no, brands in certain eras yes.

 

[25 Sharps]

In my defense, it was said to me 40 years ago before it was trendy to have rifles re-barreled and customized. But I still think it's too much hassle for the average shooter. Most want to pick a new Tikka/Sako off the shelf have a scope/mod fitted and rock out of the door ready to go. Agreed everything has some value, even if it takes a bit of work to extract it sometimes.

My point being, if you buy a duffer and won’t want to get it rebarrelled it still has some value so don’t just scrap it!

 

[Loler UK]

My advice, buying secondhand you have to know what to look for and have an idea of the market, just like anything (antiques spring to mind).

Will need an eye for detail to spot bargins and sometimes hard lessons from buying lemons. Been sold two rifles with chamber issues, one too long, one too short!

The former I rectified (long process involving buying a shot out rifle for the bolt) and the latter one the dealer 'sorted'. Both great shooters now.

Sadly marketing means that the 'name' is everything. No one wants a Howa/Remington/BSA/Parker Hale but a Tikka/Sako/Steyr/Blaser etc all seen to be faultless.

Howa 1500 are probably the best bang for buck rifle out there at the moment in the Blued Sporter (better still, the #1 lightweight) config with a sythetic stock. Very strong action, barrel good enough and synthetic stocks can also be found to suit.

Remington (moslty the Model 700) is seen as the 'problem child' as some rifles did not have good QC. Ironically, those are most likely to be the newer ones sitting on the dealer's shelves which are seen as the safe bet vs. a 1980-early 2000's one which has seen some use. Easiest rule of thumb is pick a Stainless action with the 'S' prefix and pay £500-300 and you are quids in. Avoid the 'RR' prefix serials due to crappy trigger, bedding area ruined by a QR code and bolt handles lacking primary extraction. Biggest benefit is aftermarket parts (stock, trigger, scope bases and even prefit barrels) which make them the choice of the tinkerer or box opener gunsmith.

Anything chambered in .243 is somehow seen to be 'too small' yet a 100 grain 6mm bullet will kill anything in the UK. Maybe it will have a comeback as the 'expert's choice' much like the smaller shotgun gauges.

Judgement should be made based on the bullets your rifle can fire, and the 243/6mm will do it all just fine and at reasonable cost. However, this seems to have been abandoned in favour of the 6.5 something for the time being when the competition shooters now favour either the 6mm or 7mm instead.

A badly kept secret is that Remington used 1:9 1/4 twist barrels on most of their .243's/6mm's which shoot heavier bullets a tad better than most other manufacturer's barrels which are 1:10".

A borescope can now be had for £50 and plugged into a mobile phone, so no longer a specialist tool. Headspace gauges can also be purchased (although at greater expense). If an inspection of the rifle was refused, I would not buy the rifle.

However, I have bought a few rifles 'sight unseen' and not been too badly burnt. Do some research and remember to choose wisely!

Some really good advice here however I would add that actually shooting the rifle to check the grouping before buying is essential.
Sadly there are plenty of dealers that will tell you it shoots fine despite having never fired a single round through it let alone a group
Borescoping is great if you know what you're looking at but very few people do including plenty of supposed gunsmiths. Most people will find problems that don't exist with a borescope and pass up on the deal of a lifetime.
If you ever get the opportunity, borescope a new rifle just after proofing, you will see what I mean.
The same as true of pitting on threads and crowns, shoot the rifle and check the grouping yourself you may be looking at an issue that is merely cosmetic. It's easy to re-crown and rethread a shot out barrel but most people are more likely to buy a shot out barrel with a shiny crown and threads van a good barrel with corroded threads.

 

[harrygrey382]

Sounds like you have the necessary skills and the inclination to undertake this work yourself, so a rifle with a shot-out barrel will have some worth to folks such as yourself as you have said. Out of curiosity how many folks do you think go down this route every year? I would imagine it's quite a small marketplace, especially in a constricted market as we have in the UK.

I don’t think very many people would go down this route themselves. I personally know two or three, but percentage wise it’s low. However, there are enough gunsmiths on the lookout, along with their customers who keep a look out for donor rifles to keep the prices up for desirable bolt and single actions eg mauser 98s (varying degrees from Oberndorf to Spanish), Sakos, old tikkas, martinis etc.. looking at the used market here prices are in fact largely governed by the sum of the parts, with surprisingly little added onto an action for a decent barrel being already fitted (opposed to the value of the barrel itself). I paid au$550 for this rifle, and as the barrel manufacturer gave me a killer discount ($200 profiled and chambered) on a new barrel I’m feeling a long way ahead. It does help we don’t have your (IMO) backwards proofing laws though

 

[zimtrout]

I have bought two second hand rifles. RFD costs covered by me to my gunsmith for inspection and return if necessary.
The first a sako. Apparently shot clover leafs... report from gunsmith. Pitted barrel not worth buying. Paid the return happily.
Second a sauer. 200 rounds fired.....
Report from gunsmith, it looks brand new, buy it
We have got on fine...much more accurate than I will ever be.