Shock collar

[Bowland blades]

Where do I say “The one dog I used one on”?

I have for a number of years had a very close association with Dogtra. Both Dogtra Europe and Dogtra USA.

I speak to dog owners every day who are purchasing e-collars. Several a week!

For a number of years I have run Dogtra U.K.

I know what breeds of dogs get them ordered for the most and I know the circumstances which have brought owners to the decision of spending hundreds of pounds to have the ultimate in off leash control.

I have sold to famous dog trainers, police dog handlers, mountain rescue, special forces, veterinary surgeries and elderly ladies with wayward mastiffs.

Personally I have a background in gun dogs, ran a breeding program for a police force and have supplied dogs to over a dozen police forces in both the UK and abroad. I have also competed in KNPV and protection dog trials the U.K. and Holland with my Belgian Malinois.
From approximately 2000 until closing my kennels in 2012 I visited 90% of the owners of FTCH stud dogs in the U.K. focussing on working cockers and springers.

So I think I have more than a fair grasp of e-collar use in the U.K. and I can assure you that the many stud dog owners who were happy to take thousands of pounds from me were more than candid when chatting about their training practices.

Today I spoke to a chap who was anti e-collar, that is until the police slapped a behaviour order on his dog for killing several sheep. He had sought out the farmer and the farmer had refused any compensation and reported him to the police.
This chap was ashamed at the depths of depravity he had sunk to in order to let his dog have a run off leash and be secure in the knowledge he had control. But like many others, in a couple of weeks time he will be wondering what all the fuss was about and happily walking his dog off leash.
A ban on e-collars will be a very sad day for thousands of dogs in the U.K. who will be resigned to a life in rescue shelters or euthanised because some dogs just really aren’t that fussed about liver treats.

The one dog I used one on exactly as ì wrote . ! Most folks who buy them do not understand how to use tgem and are way too soft to use tgem on their own self I did before I would put is on tge 1 dog in question . I don't think I ever tested it was working with the light
It did quit the sheep but had to be euthanised later for serious human aggression issues . I don't tend to give up easy !
Repeate if a dog cannot be trained by normal means it should never enter the gene pool . Our ansestors we can thank for leaving the UK with gundogs as good and in most cases the worlds best gundogs !

 

[Dunwaters]

Repeate if a dog cannot be trained by normal means it should never enter the gene pool . Our ansestors we can thank for leaving the UK with gundogs as good and in most cases the worlds best gundogs !

“ Normal methods”…….my friend you are either very young or have a very short memory.
“Normal” included whipping with sticks, ropes or leashes, kicks, shooting up the arse with small shot, choke collars, spike collars, muzzles, all helped along with regular beatings and thrashings. Physical punishment was considered an essential part of dog training up til the 1980’s.
Nowadays any hint of physical chastisement is frowned upon, which may just be a case of throwing out both baby and bath water.
Extremes at either end of the scale are not optimal.
Lastly, your dogs in the UK are good, very very good even, but they are used in a way that’s unique to your needs and shooting culture, so while they’re good, they’re good under your own very specific rules of engagement. In most other places a dog is expected to have a far wider repertoire in the field.
So good, but not the necessarily worlds best.

 

[Bowland blades]

“ Normal methods”…….my friend you are either very young or have a very short memory.
“Normal” included whipping with sticks, ropes or leashes, kicks, shooting up the arse with small shot, choke collars, spike collars, muzzles, all helped along with regular beatings and thrashings. Physical punishment was considered an essential part of dog training up til the 1980’s.
Nowadays any hint of physical chastisement is frowned upon, which may just be a case of throwing out both baby and bath water.
Extremes at either end of the scale are not optimal.
Lastly, your dogs in the UK are good, very very good even, but they are used in a way that’s unique to your needs and shooting culture, so while they’re good, they’re good under your own very specific rules of engagement. In most other places a dog is expected to have a far wider repertoire in the field.
So good, but not the necessarily worlds best.

You know there ain't many dogs coming in from the USA etc for shooting or stalking. I frankly don't care to keep a gundog I need to thrash or electrocute in order to train it .

 

[Dunwaters]

You know there ain't many dogs coming in from the USA etc for shooting or stalking. I frankly don't care to keep a gundog I need to thrash or electrocute in order to train it .

There’s a fairly strong trade from both Europe and the US, particularly in pointers,HPR’s and labradors.
If you don’t care to keep a dog that needs physical corrections now and again, or you should find yourself with one that does, but you have both the time and the skills to correct it without resort to physical chastisement, congratulations, most people lack either the skills or the time.

 

[Bowland blades]

There’s a fairly strong trade from both Europe and the US, particularly in pointers,HPR’s and labradors.
If you don’t care to keep a dog that needs physical corrections now and again, or you should find yourself with one that does, but you have both the time and the skills to correct it without resort to physical chastisement, congratulations, most people lack either the skills or the time.

Austria that's it , they have decent labs thier also . American labs I don't rate the methods I rate less
Besides the Austrian blood ( which flows I the veins of one of mine btw ) tge Austrians do pretty much what we do I shooting and training . there is no credible reason to bring any other nations labs into ours ( least of all American)
No physical correction is part of dog training but the e collar is there to deal with the results of poor breeding or lack of the trainers repertoire
There are axlot of ours going over the big pond the other way though one kennel near me has a very healthy trade that way

 

[Dunwaters]

Austria that's it , they have decent labs thier also . American labs I don't rate the methods I rate less
Besides the Austrian blood ( which flows I the veins of one of mine btw ) tge Austrians do pretty much what we do I shooting and training . there is no credible reason to bring any other nations labs into ours ( least of all American)
No physical correction is part of dog training but the e collar is there to deal with the results of poor breeding or lack of the trainers repertoire
There are axlot of ours going over the big pond the other way though one kennel near me has a very healthy trade that way

As someone else once remarked
“ I value your opinion, but not when I know better “.
Your dogs, your way. My dogs my way.

 

[Overlay]

best way - try on yourself first and if it alters your way of thinking your good to go

 

[Poola]

As a last resort perhaps - livestock chasing when nothing else would work and on-lead is impractical (and you want to keep the dig and have to be out with stock…) - otherwise seen dogs reduced to nervous wrecks after them (and headstrong “hard” dogs too). Have seen them work, I have to say - but would rather try everything else first.

 

[Poola]

Thinking of it, remote spray collars can be good for training so long as the dog isn’t in full on pelt mode… Still give a “shock” in ter,s of surprise - a little shot of compressed air under the chin (or citronella in the not-so-pleasant version…)

 

[Dogtra UK]

Only problem with spray collars is they have 1 level. If the drive in the dogs is at ant level where it chooses to ignore tge spray then you have missed tge training opportunity.

K9 drive as as I am sure you are aware, on a sliding scale. Pet drive when follow img scent is lower down the scale than a flat out chase after a hare.

When using a collar you need to be able to slightly exceed the drive in the dog to bring its attention away from the prey and back to you.

 

[Shabz]

I wouldn’t be keen on spraying citronella up my dogs nose either. She’s supposed to find minute hints of scent.

 

[Poola]

Missed replies to this on spray collars. Never used Citronella myself, but it is not meant to be used in a tracking / scenting training situation… stopping a dog from chasing should be resolved in an entirely different training scenario. And really doubt long-term effects on scenting ability of using Citronella (but again, not tried… only used this with scentless spray = compressed air puff…)
As for 1 level on spray collars, that’s absolutely true (although think you can select short or long spray from memory - but they’re not different in terms of forcefulness of spray - just duration. And it’s the initial “puff” that has the impact if not using a scented spray).
I have successfully used a spray collar as a last resort on a line-bred field-trialling dog (retriever) with real drive - and chase issues (we took it on at 12m)! Not being able to ramp up did not matter. It resolved the problem - but you have to be patient - it’s not an immediate “quick fix”, and you have to work at it. It was more a matter of being extremely alert and conscious of the dog - the dog needs to be your sole focus. As soon as the dog starts to look like it’s going, you need to spray - and ideally recall / (stop whistle - altho’ less good) at exactly the same time. A long line as back-up (and I mean long) is helpful too just in case. If you do it properly - even if you resort to the line as back-up - then the dog won’t have got up any speed. (But if it has and you’ve messed up, certainly don’t yank it back on a long line - which is a recipe for skeletal disaster…)

 

[rem284]

Love them or hate them. If used correctly they are extremely effective at correcting unwanted behaviour. Clearly it’s better to get a well bred dog and train it correctly from the start.

Some things can be corrected and other things can’t. For example you’ll never stop a dog whining with a collar, I’ve seen people try and it’s horrific, turns the dog into an absolute mess.

You want to make a head strong high drive dog steady, a collar will do it almost instantly.

However dogs are not stupid, they know when they are on and when they are not. Train with a collar on, you will always need a collar on.

I agree that dogs are not stupid but if you apply the same theory to if you train using a collar you always need a collar on to training using treats then you always need treats in your pocket.

 

[rem284]

Unless you can do 100m in 9.5s then use one not ideal but having a chaser is far from ideal either

I think you have to be faster than that. The quicker the correction can be used the better, ideally applied just as the thought to do the fault crosses the dog mind

 

[Doric]

Any one use one? If so are they worth putting your dog through? I have an issue with hares mine can’t help but take chase

Just train your dog prior to entering the shooting field. To many times I see dogs taken out when they are not prepared for the excitement of lots of dogs people and game.
A shoot is for 100% trained gundogs not a place to train your dog.
Gundog training classes or beter still one on one tuition with a competent instructor will keep you on the straight and narrow.
If anyone needs help in Aberdeenshire I would be happy to help.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

“ Normal methods”…….my friend you are either very young or have a very short memory.
“Normal” included whipping with sticks, ropes or leashes, kicks, shooting up the arse with small shot, choke collars, spike collars, muzzles, all helped along with regular beatings and thrashings. Physical punishment was considered an essential part of dog training up til the 1980’s.
Nowadays any hint of physical chastisement is frowned upon, which may just be a case of throwing out both baby and bath water.
Extremes at either end of the scale are not optimal.
Lastly, your dogs in the UK are good, very very good even, but they are used in a way that’s unique to your needs and shooting culture, so while they’re good, they’re good under your own very specific rules of engagement. In most other places a dog is expected to have a far wider repertoire in the field.
So good, but not the necessarily worlds best.

There is a lot of truth and sense in this statement....
"Lastly, your dogs in the UK are good, very very good even, but they are used in a way that’s unique to your needs and shooting culture, so while they’re good, they’re good under your own very specific rules of engagement. In most other places a dog is expected to have a far wider repertoire in the field".

All things aren't equal, all breeds aren't equal and individuals in breeds can vary a lot. Continental breeds of very high prey drive that are expected and encouraged to hunt far and wide and to hunt formidable quarry can never be compared to Labs or even driven Springers. Those who comment on such posts are usually commenting from a very limited perspective.

In the days before the internet, a chat about working dogs was often comparing like with like. Now when we talk of 'working dogs' we could be comparing a peg Lab with a cow-herding border collie and a boar driving teckel................Like comparing a Mazda MX5 with a Porsche Boxster S and a Honda S2000.

 

[Bowland blades]

There is a lot of truth and sense in this statement....
"Lastly, your dogs in the UK are good, very very good even, but they are used in a way that’s unique to your needs and shooting culture, so while they’re good, they’re good under your own very specific rules of engagement. In most other places a dog is expected to have a far wider repertoire in the field".

All things aren't equal, all breeds aren't equal and individuals in breeds can vary a lot. Continental breeds of very high prey drive that are expected and encouraged to hunt far and wide and to hunt formidable quarry can never be compared to Labs or even driven Springers. Those who comment on such posts are usually commenting from a very limited perspective.

In the days before the internet, a chat about working dogs was often comparing like with like. Now when we talk of 'working dogs' we could be comparing a peg Lab with a cow-herding border collie and a boar driving teckel................Like comparing a Mazda MX5 with a Porsche Boxster S and a Honda S2000.

In my experience its tge dog infront of you not the breed ! People forget the Australian forces chose Labradors for patrol dogs in veitnam ( none came home , too dangerous)
I know one dog trainer / kennel owner of vast experience. He does Mels , gundogs a pets . All his bad bites are from labs .
My eldest lab is a brilliant natured beast but faced with a injured sika or human aggressor? Different matter
This is why police forces don't have labs as man dogs they can do massive damage if , strange but true
My daughter is into that milkman fella his two worst bites ? Both labs and he seems to spend half his time on pit bulls

 

[BeastFromTheEast]

I know a guy who uses one as a precaution for his young dog when he’s about farm animals and roads, swears by them .

 

[Ooops]

I found that Martin Deeley published a very useful and informative series of videos about using an e-collar

The first one was "Introducing Your Dog to the BigLeash Remote Training Collar"
I believe there are seven in that series

I don't have anything like the experience of many of you but I found his use of one to be most enlightening, educational and informative.
I liken its correct use to attracting some one's attention in a crowded bar by touching their arm, YMMV

IMHO its not an instrument of abuse, unless used incorrectly but then so too are hands, feet, leads, etc. etc