Shoot more Deer !

[75]

Yep, happy to advise by PM and a few threads on here already about it but basically:

1. Download the FSA Wild Game Guide - this is the controlling document that you will be assessed against.
2. Register as a Food Business with your local authority - this will likely be online.
3. You'll need a HACCP document which details your workflow - PM me and I can send you a copy of mine (which was previously supplied by kind SD members)
4. You'll get an inspection from an EHO who may or may not have any idea about stalking or the Wild Game Guide! 2 out of my 3 inspections have been a case of talking the inspector through the process from shot to sale of product - they've always been helpful and interested but generally do restaurants and takeaways rather than stalkers.

My chiller is in the barn. I skin there, break down into lumps and then butcher in my kitchen and EHO very happy with that.

 

[VSS]

As I've already mentioned, probably far too many times, I am not supportive of the proposed national venison assurance scheme because it basically excludes small-scale producer / retailers, and will create a two-tier market.

So here's an alternative suggestion that could be taken up by the recreational and small-scale sector, if anyone would care to run with it:

Firstly, we need well-organised regional deer management groups. A group of stalkers with an entity have a far greater chance of securing grant funding etc, and have more bargaining power. There are such groups already in existence in some areas, but many are dysfunctional.

Next, the DMGs need to set a high quality standard. This can be achieved by organising carcass presentation training days for members. I'm sure the BDS could be involved in this. I notice that one of my daughter's roles in her new appointment with the BDS is to "identify training needs". If a representative of a DMG were to contact her saying that they require a training course for their members I should think she'd get on the case.
Attendance at training courses would have to be a compulsory requirement of membership of the group, regardless of prior experience.

Next, the members of the DMG should devise a totally transparent pricing schedule for carcasses of guaranteed quality. Using fallow as an example, as that's the species I'm most familiar with, it might look something like this:
Head shot - £4/kg
Neck shot - £3.50/kg
Chest shot, minimal damage - £2.80/kg
Chest shot, one or both shoulders damaged - £2/kg
Anything else (gut shot, loin or haunch damaged, etc) - NOT FOR SALE

Price might also vary by sex / age, or time of year (eg, cheaper after Christmas when carcass quality declines).
Also, there would need to be some scope for negotiation within the schedule, but at no time should the buyer be dictating the price (as currently happens via game dealers).

Next, the DMG approaches local butchers / retailers / farm shops / restaurants etc to secure outlets for carcasses produced by its members to the required high quality. A recognised group, offering a guaranteed standard and transparent pricing, may have a better chance of convincing a potential purchaser than an individual stalker would. Cut out the middleman (game dealer) completely. Local provenance is a real buzzword in food procurement these days, so the group holds the trump card. A butcher in Sussex (for example) should be selling venison from deer shot by local people within a few miles radius of the shop, not rutty reds from Scotland courtesy of a big company like Highland Game.
Having done this, the DMG would furnish its members with a list of retailers who've "signed up" to the scheme, and it would be up to the individuals to contact the buyers to arrange supply and delivery, at the pre agreed prices, and at the pre agreed quality.
Collaboration between stalkers, via the DMG, would ensure that supply is evenly distributed.

So that's my take on it. Forget national schemes, and get busy at a regional level, with as many stalkers in the region as possible all singing from the same hymn sheet.

And above all, never take your eye off quality control. Standards on the whole are pretty poor. That's got to change.

 

[Overlay]

Nice write up VSS
For stalkers. The bottom line is a need to get there arse in gear and decide either hobby or money earner two different avenues completely
I believe it’s the initial stalkers responsibility to get the chain in line for the carcase transfer either way

Too much emphasis on the shot rather than the carcase, then the groaning starts in some quarters about selling on, rejection, prices etc etc
I mentioned this before I know but the 6 P’s are essential to all of the above

 

[Pete6.5]

Exactly this too many folks with too much ground not killing enough. I always thought if we were serious about getting deer numbers down then 1 or 2 monteria drives per year would be more than effective and control the surge of venison into the food change.

Deer drives and moves that Ive been on over the years have been far from efficient on a man hours for deer output. In the doe season I try to keep it to 1 deer per 1.5hours including larder time.

 

[David Barker]

Exactly. I think we are meant to shoot another 50,000 in Scotland. Where are they going to go and for how much? You can't start a wee business and dispose of that lot. The market just isn't there. Presumably the market will adjust, they will go to dog food and we will get pennies rather than pounds. More Sellers than Buyers.

The Answer is to shoot what you can get rid of . Why shoot more because some one at government level who normally has been badly advised says so. I will be using the new law that lets me shoot males of of season to see if i can more deer on some places i shoot.

 

[old 30-06]

Overlay, I agree. Most people focus on the shot. Once it has been taken though, the deer is now food. It should be treated as such. It needs as much thought into how to process it as went into obtaining it.

 

[Pete6.5]

Nice write up VSS
For stalkers. The bottom line is a need to get there arse in gear and decide either hobby or money earner two different avenues completely
I believe it’s the initial stalkers responsibility to get the chain in line for the carcase transfer either way

Too much emphasis on the shot rather than the carcase, then the groaning starts in some quarters about selling on, rejection, prices etc etc
I mentioned this before I know but the 6 P’s are essential to all of the above

I've said this before that a deer managers biggest asset when going for a contract is that they have in place a route for the deer and the facilities and equipment to carry out this hard job. I've advised some land owners locally to me what they should ask when interviewing a possible manager and somethings should be in place before you go for a contract.

 

[David Barker]

The problem with the venison market is that there’s no such thing, there are 6 very different products being marketed under a single banner.

I agree totally and i have had an experience lately that clearly shows we have different products and different tastes. I cull a large red only a month or so back she was in good condition and was butcher. Past to my usual consumers but told this is Red deer not the normal roe deer. Most did not like the taste and asked to have roe next time.Some liked the red and have asked for more. We need to give consumers clear instructions as to what they are eating.

 

[75]

The Answer is to shoot what you can get rid of .

In which case, only take on the amount of land which requires you cull the number of deer you can get rid of. Too many people have more land / deer than they can shoot.

Why shoot more because some one at government level who normally has been badly advised says so.

I think it is pretty widely acknowledged across the stalking community and outside of government that deer numbers need reducing in many places. This is not driven by ill-informed politicians.

 

[baguio]

The Answer is to shoot what you can get rid of .

And that, in a nutshell is why the UK is overpopulated with deer. That female deer that you chose not to shoot has now had a calf which has also had a calf. Kicking the can down the road will simply flood the market further and reduce the price per carcass further.
I really hope that no one listend to your advice David because it's a terrible idea for us stalkers and for the countryside in general!

 

[Tim.243]

That's fine and I agree if you're shooting over crops. However, even then you're not going to be shooting as many as in the winter because they're not moving around so much and there are times when a lot of the crops are too tall and the hedges provide plenty of cover for them to hide in.
I'm paid to manage woods and therefore like to give the pay master value for money. I shot 3 muntjac last night. All 3 would have been invisible in a month's time as the cover is growing rapidly. It would therefore be wrong of me to be taking money with little chance of being successful.
We also have the guides who get far more money if their clients shoot trophy bucks. Clearly that requires hard antlered bucks. Mature munties are casting now and won't be in hard antler again for a few months which means that even if the cover was down they wouldn't want to shoot them. The same goes for the Trophy hunters.

I too shoot woodland areas and take advantage of the margins as it is a good spot with them coming into crops as per my post. Being on a good number of farms I get to see also know the drill plan (as I ask) so at any point in the week I can pitch up and have a good chance of a shot.
One new farm is going into wild birds cover and there are pinch points the fallow will cross so I have worked this out for later in the year. With people leaving deer to grow a set got us all in the position we are in with the good point the op made in post #1

 

[nun_hunter]

The Answer is to shoot what you can get rid of . Why shoot more because some one at government level who normally has been badly advised says so. I will be using the new law that lets me shoot males of of season to see if i can more deer on some places i shoot.

That depends if your priority is selling or moving on the carcass or reducing the number of deer for that landowner. They are linked but you can focus on one more than the other.

If deer are causing £10k of damage a year for a landowner you telling them that they're only worth £5k in sales or you can only shoot half of what they want you to so you won't shoot more isn't going to cut it.

 

[Overlay]

That depends if your priority is selling or moving on the carcass or reducing the number of deer for that landowner. They are linked but you can focus on one more than the other.

If deer are causing £10k of damage a year for a landowner you telling them that they're only worth £5k in sales or you can only shoot half of what they want you to so you won't shoot more isn't going to cut it.

Yep just about sums it up
Job can be done you just have to put more emphasis on the big picture and more energy to find a solution

 

[VSS]

As a slight aside to the thread, I wish there'd been as many deer around when I was in my twenties as there are now, because despite being a problem they are a fantastic resource and present some great opportunities.

Actually, perhaps that's partially the problem? There aren't enough stalkers in their 20s. Just old farts of 50+ without ambitions.

 

[One on top of two]

I was always led to believe there was no close season on munty's

Sweet Jesus and there’s me slotting them all year round !

 

[Dunwaters]

The current situation has come about on our watch, we have allowed the population of deer to increase to the point where drastic action is required and we’re not very likely to be invited to participate in the dirty work that is now needed.
The status of both deer and venison has been down graded as new corporate landowners reevaluate their business.
If I had a large estate I might also decide that the income from carbon capture and forestry grants is more attractive than the comparatively small income from sporting tenants and it’s also far less controversial and unlikely to blow up in my face.
Once I decide to plant trees I am going to reduce the deer population in the most efficient manner possible, contractors, thermal, night licences, shoot on sight policies etc etc.
I will leave the carcasses where they fall, because they’re expensive to retrieve and not worth the effort.
This is where we’re heading, the 365 day season for stags will destroy the trophy industry and with that gone deer become a liability rather than an asset.
I have a new business model based on grants and carbon trading, deer are an anachronism and a liability that I no longer want on my ground, I may never get them all, but I will get every single one I see, the annual cost of the contractors to control the deer is part of the business model.

Does any of this sound even vaguely familiar?

 

[old 30-06]

dunwater, You are right in that the current situation has come about on our watch. We should all think about that for a moment ! As it has come about on our watch we have the moral obligation to correct it.

As a suggestion to rapidly reduce deer numbers, and what to do with the venison, what about large estates with very high numbers of deer offering very cheap (or free) stalking / high seat shooting to members of this forum, with the stipulation that the stalker takes the carcus to eat ?

 

[Twodogs]

In many cases that I am aware of, myself included, there are people who have the time/inclination/resources to want to be able to shoot more deer but are hampered by a number of issues, other issues also available:
1. Safe havens, down to the public's attitude.
2. Stalkers with permissions who either don't shoot them or shoot them so rarely that they make no difference. I have one such near me where the stalker only ever visits during Buck season and then rarely.
3. The cost of shooting someone else's permission i.e pay to stalk, to shoot and to take the carcass away, as highlighted in this thread numerous times.
We must prioritise sorting out our own issues, as a collective stalking fraternity, which could be done relatively easily and quickly before working on the public perception/attitude.

 

[Pete6.5]

dunwater, You are right in that the current situation has come about on our watch. We should all think about that for a moment ! As it has come about on our watch we have the moral obligation to correct it.

As a suggestion to rapidly reduce deer numbers, and what to do with the venison, what about large estates with very high numbers of deer offering very cheap (or free) stalking / high seat shooting to members of this forum, with the stipulation that the stalker takes the carcus to eat ?

This idea of free or cheap stalking for all would make things worse not better. One guy employed on a estate if there is enough deer can shoot 300 deer in a year. Can you imagine the organisation to get roughly 150 separate man outings organised and that's assuming each person shoots 2 and takes 2 away.

 

[muntjacmad]

Great thread this, a lot to think about here. I do agree with the above in my area there are large tracts of land sewn up with "grandfather rights" type guys that are not equipped to shoot any number of deer more than one for xmas. they neither have the understanding or the initiative and that's not being disrespectful. I'm hoping to see an increase in the shoot one for the table stalking being offered at reasonable rates. where an outing can be purchased that includes the carcass or multiple carcass to go home. maybe wishful thinking but we can live in hope.