So . . . .

[User00025]

It was not a clear instruction to parliament to leave the EU because the leave voteers were completely mislead by various people with a whole set of lies and unfounded assumptions on what leave meant and could achieve.
Personally I would simply terminate article 50 and end the stupid mess as the public should never have been given the opportunity to destroy the UK economy with a pencil.
However because we live in a democracy
A People’s vote on what is now known is the only sensible and right thing to do now.
Kindest regards, Olaf

And you want to give them a pencil again, to make another cross and destroy us with further division. You make me laugh, I assume you used to write the Monty Python sketches, talk about double standards.

 

[gerarddwatts]

What on earth is a 'peoples vote'?

Who voted last time if it wasn't the people?

I expect it must be the same folk as need a 'peoples princess' or other such rubbish.

We voted. We knew what we wanted. We will be able to watch the european 'project' wither and die from the sidelines, having got a head start away from the failed federal republic of Europe.

 

[jimmy milnes]

It's funny ''maybe funny is not the correct word'' but over the past year or so I can't help but think how close to accuracy the old TV series Yes Minister must be !!

 

[Bavarianbrit]

This issue really divides many good people down the middle.
There can be no right or wrong to it, just get on and do it and man up to whatever will happen afterwards, (all the "I told you so"s will preach of course).
I hated, for instance the registration laws in Germany when I first got there as it was such an alien concept to a Brit.
Now I see the wisdom of them having a better handle on who is in the country and where. I have made my bed there and will lay in it for my natural.
I do wish good luck to all in the UK even as I deeply feel that it is a mistake we all have that right to do what we feel to be best and then to pay the price or reap the reward, so far nobody can predict the future on this one (a real national lottery).
Regards
BB

 

[kennyc]

Any analysis of the immigration situation has found we have as a country singularly failed to implement the laws at our disposal AS EU MEMEBERS to control it

THE EU only controls EU citizens and indipendant and government analysis has found we benefit greatly as a country from immigration with the average EU immigrant paying in 75,000 more than he takes out over his working life.

The EU has very little control over immigration from outside the EU borders but its worth noting the UK has one of the lowest uptakes of Asylum seekers in the whole of the EU and the highest rejection rate of asylum seekers.

The facts are in the 70s we started to base our economy on immigration. We import skills rather than invest in training. By the 80s apprentaships were dead and this continues today with things like the governments 100% removal of funding for psychiatric medical training. We simply import trained staff and save on the training cost. We import hard working people who are willing to work for wages UK people wont work for in conditions UK workers refuse to work in.

We have been actively encouraging immigration for 40 years. My uncle had the task of promoting UK immigration when he worked for the foreign office from 1960s through to 1990s

To suggest we have been overrun without being able to stop it is laughable. It was the plan and the plan worked

The EU tried to prevent the importation of cheep labour labour with the Posted Workers Directive. This directive made it illegal to take on workers at lower pay lower standards and with fewer benefits than native people in the same job. Whilst not being the same as migrant workers, the UK still fiercely rejected this directive on the grounds that "It will damage our competitiveness" we have fought against ,ignored and legislated around the PWD since 1996 so the UK can enjoy cheep foreign labour

Control over EU law? We have the same voting power as Germany and we have the undying support of Poland making the UK the single most influential voice in the EU. Which probably explains why over 98% of EU directives were ACTIVLY supported by the UK. The UK also has the right of veto which is why we are not in the Euro and didn't accept the HIPS regulations


Failure of people to do any kind of personal research and total reliance on toilet paper like the Daily Mail and Express has lead to the ill founded beliefs you hold. The media (all media) has failed us in that its seeks ratings above the truth and the more sensational the story, the more it sells.

well said, sadly it will fall on deaf ears as all some people want to do is beat their chest and ignore the facts, in doing so they cast us into the hands of those who failed to enforce the laws that would have prevented a lot of the anti- immigration bad feelings and take us from an actual position of influence and power and make us into a has been, standing on the outside waiting to be thrown crumbs .

 

[enfieldspares]

And if "the people" had had a referendum in 1938 about going to war with Nazi Germany over that country's actions in Czechoslovakia? Have little doubt that they'd have voted not to go to war in 1938. In that respect Neville Chamberlain was only following what was "the will of the people" even though there was no referendum on the matter.

MPs are elected as representatives not delegates and the the resulting "leave" result was to merely to leave. There's some here that may say their reason to vote "leave" was for X or for Y but that is what motivated them.

Others may have voted leave as they wanted a Norway style relationship or a Switzerland style relationship. Unless you interview all of the voters you don't know. We are leaving and whilst I voted "leave" as Cameron's deal if he had delivered a "remain" vote gave many of us no choice but to vote to leave.

We are leaving.

That's what we voted to do and it is as representatives...not delegates...that Mrs May has negotiated that withdrawal agreement as an interim to the actual relationship to then be negotiated as to what we will finally agree once the withdrawal agreement is in place. It is typical that having lost the Confidence Vote that Rees-Mogg is now saying that Mrs May should resign anyway. Apparently he's only happy with a democratic result if it suits his own agenda now!

I'm no fan of Theresa May. I think she is useless and ineffective. Always have done since she was at the Home Office. Exceeded her capabilities and competences once she advanced beyond being a Girls' Grammar School blackboard monitor. But we need to move on to now negotiating our what our relationship will be once we've left. This Withdrawal Agreement isn't perfect but it allows us to reach that goal of leave.

 

[enfieldspares]

Any analysis of the immigration situation has found we have as a country singularly failed to implement the laws at our disposal AS EU MEMBERS to control it

You are correct. In fact we have a right to require even EU Citizens to leave after three months if they are unable to be self-sufficient. This country through every single successive Government has failed to do so. There were Roumanian gypsies camped out on Park Lane and Marble Arch that were never subject to that right that the UK has to require them to leave. There's people that conveniently scapegoat the EU to avoid themselves taking responsibility for their own administrative failures.

 

[Roro]

You are correct. In fact we have a right to require even EU Citizens to leave after three months if they are unable to be self-sufficient. This country through every single successive Government has failed to do so. There were Roumanian gypsies camped out on Park Lane and Marble Arch that were never subject to that right that the UK has to require them to leave. There's people that conveniently scapegoat the EU to avoid themselves taking responsibility for their own administrative failures.

They cannot move them, you would have dollops like geldof, emma thompson, lineker and all the other champagne socialists kicking up a stink.

 

[JTO]

People who think the EU is a great idea are either naive beyond belief or closet communists.

 

[enfieldspares]

Same issue with blaming the EU about people coming in an not paying vehicle excise duty (Car Tax) or avoiding speeding fines as the vehicle is on EU plates. In Ireland I understand that the Garda had instant computer access as to when a vehicle came into Ireland and wil, and do, stop, seize and impound those there for over six months if the money isn't immediately paid? My friend has reported the same EU registered vehicle time and time again over three years! It's still here, no UK Car Tax and nothing is done. At least now the law has changed and police in the UK can issue on the spot cash fines for traffic offences to non-UK registered vehicles. But again we're blaming the EU for own own domestic administrative failures.

 

[NigelM]

People who think the EU is a great idea are either naive beyond belief or closet communists.

I'm not usually one for getting involved in politics, but I've just got to react to this one.

The great British Empire is funnily enough not what it used to be. We are a little island full of people who look to our past far more than they think about our future. We are no longer a world power, no matter how good we think we are, and need to be part of a community to compete globally.

The original concept of the EU was spot on. A trading entity that together could compete with the US and China on the global playing field. Without being part of that larger community that has the GDP of the larger nations we are just set to be a sad little nation at the mercy of the big boys, no matter how "special" we think our relationships are.

The problem with the EU, and I hate them as much as the next guy, is that it's run by a bunch of unelected empire builders who can't even get an audit signed off because they are so corrupt.

To my mind, faced with splendid isolation or working to change a very good concept that's being badly run from the inside, we are better with the latter tactic. Becoming one of the big voices at the table, fighting against the corruption and remaining part of the trading entity. We also get to steer the EU away from the concept of the super nation.

There is a good chance it might crash anyway if it continues down the road it's going. We might be smug if it happens, but what good will it do us? Strong pound, expensive exports to a trading block that's in depression...no good at all for anyone.

The only hope we have if we are not going to be part of the EU is to hard exit and turn ourselves into the Caymen Islands of Europe, making our financial services exceptionally attractive and making London an even bigger power house than it already is. Unfortunately that's not going to help industry at all and anyone outside London is going to suffer.

Time will tell, but the path we are going down at the moment, trying to find some middle ground and unable to either be part of the EU or forge our own path, in my opinion is doomed to failure, no matter what we get back in terms of our sovereignty.

It is the definition of a clusterf**k.

Call me a naive closest communist if you feel you want to, but I feel you really need to wake up and smell the napalm.

 

[biffo]

People’s new vote : mays deal ( or what it becomes) , no deal, or remain. Now you know more about the issues, how will you vote??

3 better informed options now for the public to choose from. ......methinks most would now chose Remain from those options on the table.

 

[hoodwink]

I'm not usually one for getting involved in politics, but I've just got to react to this one.

The great British Empire is funnily enough not what it used to be. We are a little island full of people who look to our past far more than they think about our future. We are no longer a world power, no matter how good we think we are, and need to be part of a community to compete globally.

The original concept of the EU was spot on. A trading entity that together could compete with the US and China on the global playing field. Without being part of that larger community that has the GDP of the larger nations we are just set to be a sad little nation at the mercy of the big boys, no matter how "special" we think our relationships are.

The problem with the EU, and I hate them as much as the next guy, is that it's run by a bunch of unelected empire builders who can't even get an audit signed off because they are so corrupt.

To my mind, faced with splendid isolation or working to change a very good concept that's being badly run from the inside, we are better with the latter tactic. Becoming one of the big voices at the table, fighting against the corruption and remaining part of the trading entity. We also get to steer the EU away from the concept of the super nation.

There is a good chance it might crash anyway if it continues down the road it's going. We might be smug if it happens, but what good will it do us? Strong pound, expensive exports to a trading block that's in depression...no good at all for anyone.

The only hope we have if we are not going to be part of the EU is to hard exit and turn ourselves into the Caymen Islands of Europe, making our financial services exceptionally attractive and making London an even bigger power house than it already is. Unfortunately that's not going to help industry at all and anyone outside London is going to suffer.

Time will tell, but the path we are going down at the moment, trying to find some middle ground and unable to either be part of the EU or forge our own path, in my opinion is doomed to failure, no matter what we get back in terms of our sovereignty.

It is the definition of a clusterf**k.

Call me a naive closest communist if you feel you want to, but I feel you really need to wake up and smell the napalm.

I think Nigel that we need to leave in order to get back to the original idea of a trading partnership rather than the United States of Europe. We should not take their rules what so ever,they have drawn us in and would expect to do the same again. I really cant see the problem with dealing with whom we like we are a net importer which means the rest of the world is our oyster. It’s cheaper to import a leg of lamb from NZ than the plastic bag costs that its packed in.

 

[Chasey]

so basically give in to bullys ? you might but I will never give in to bullys !

Seeing as we have equal voting power to Germany and France and under EU rules any three of the main players can push through a ruling but NOT any two plus Germany, what makes you believe for one milli second that the EU can or could bully us in the past?

Now we are out of the way from the negotiations, they WILL at last be able to bully us because they will be the big powerful organisation and we will be the considerably smaller under dogs with no direct say in anything.

THATS the reality we now face.

This will become apparent in a very short period of time. Right now we have just adopted all EU law into UK law but any thoughts that this will suddenly stop and we will be able to ignore future key directives from the EU is laughable.

More importantly, the past EU legislation has for the most part been beneficial to the UK. We supported over 98% of it, so why would we even want to contest future legislation?

I have asked it before but here is a list of EU directives

Tell me the top 10 your against and why?

List of European Union directives - Wikipedia

 

[NigelM]

I think Nigel that we need to leave in order to get back to the original idea of a trading partnership rather than the United States of Europe. We should not take their rules what so ever,they have drawn us in and would expect to do the same again. I really cant see the problem with dealing with whom we like we are a net importer which means the rest of the world is our oyster. It’s cheaper to import a leg of lamb from NZ than the plastic bag costs that its packed in.

A fine sentiment, but that's not the deal that's on the table. May has done the best deal she could do, Corbyn or that **** Rees Mogg wouldn't have done any better as the EU have a line drawn in the sand and we don't have anything to negotiate with. We are in no mans land and that will not do us any good at all - it was always going to happen, they were never going to give us what we wanted - why would they?

In terms of dealing with whom we like, that will not happen under the current deal. And the EU is 44% of our exports, a bloody big hole to fill which will take us decades to recover. I hear all the quotes about us being a net importer, but it means bugger all. 52% of our imports are from the EU, but that 52% is from 28 countries so a very small issue for each one individually. 44% of our exports vs about 2% of each of theirs on average. They are much more important to us than we are to any of them.

The world is not our oyster. You heard what that **** Trump said when he heard about the deal - "the UK might find it very difficult to trade with the US if they leave the EU". Some special relationship.

 

[Cottis]

I'm not usually one for getting involved in politics, but I've just got to react to this one.

The great British Empire is funnily enough not what it used to be. We are a little island full of people who look to our past far more than they think about our future. We are no longer a world power, no matter how good we think we are, and need to be part of a community to compete globally.

The original concept of the EU was spot on. A trading entity that together could compete with the US and China on the global playing field. Without being part of that larger community that has the GDP of the larger nations we are just set to be a sad little nation at the mercy of the big boys, no matter how "special" we think our relationships are.

The problem with the EU, and I hate them as much as the next guy, is that it's run by a bunch of unelected empire builders who can't even get an audit signed off because they are so corrupt.

To my mind, faced with splendid isolation or working to change a very good concept that's being badly run from the inside, we are better with the latter tactic. Becoming one of the big voices at the table, fighting against the corruption and remaining part of the trading entity. We also get to steer the EU away from the concept of the super nation.

There is a good chance it might crash anyway if it continues down the road it's going. We might be smug if it happens, but what good will it do us? Strong pound, expensive exports to a trading block that's in depression...no good at all for anyone.

The only hope we have if we are not going to be part of the EU is to hard exit and turn ourselves into the Caymen Islands of Europe, making our financial services exceptionally attractive and making London an even bigger power house than it already is. Unfortunately that's not going to help industry at all and anyone outside London is going to suffer.

Time will tell, but the path we are going down at the moment, trying to find some middle ground and unable to either be part of the EU or forge our own path, in my opinion is doomed to failure, no matter what we get back in terms of our sovereignty.

It is the definition of a clusterf**k.

Call me a naive closest communist if you feel you want to, but I feel you really need to wake up and smell the napalm.

Basically this.

Be interesting to see what happens with a No deal situation. Currency issues, inflation, rising interest rates, housing market price corrections, overall general lack of disposable income and no support from anywhere else. Some of those things are sort of necessary if not desirable and potentially are happening anyway but this situation will help expedite these issues.

History tends to show that integration, inclusion and togetherness are rather good traits that encourage positive outcomes. This little island creates very little anymore. It is 2018, not 1950.

 

[enfieldspares]

Of course what the idiots like Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson...neither of them ever having had a real job...fail to mention is that JUST AS THE CHINESE DO in order to sell goods into the EU post-Brexit everything will have to still bear the CE "mark" and comply with EU product standards law.

So where's the control we, the UK, will have over setting that product standards law after the UK leaves? If you don't believe what I am saying about the CE "mark" or didn't know what it was look at any Chinese made mobile 'phone, computer, even a standalone simple 13 Amp plug.

So free trade or not make no mistake that UK manufacturers if they wish to export to the EU 27 post-Brexit will STILL have to make products complying with EU Directives that we will no longer have control over. That's taking back control of our manufacturing apparently!

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Active skill emigration from the UK may be one reality.

 

[potshotpat]

Did we not join a Common Market, but are now getting out of a single Union ?

 

[deeangeo]

Of course what the idiots like Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson...neither of them ever having had a real job...fail to mention is that JUST AS THE CHINESE DO in order to sell goods into the EU post-Brexit everything will have to still bear the CE "mark" and comply with EU product standards law.

So where's the control we, the UK, will have over setting that product standards law after the UK leaves? If you don't believe what I am saying about the CE "mark" or didn't know what it was look at any Chinese made mobile 'phone, computer, even a standalone simple 13 Amp plug.

So free trade or not make no mistake that UK manufacturers if they wish to export to the EU 27 post-Brexit will STILL have to make products complying with EU Directives that we will no longer have control over. That's taking back control of our manufacturing apparently!

I don’t see any problem or issue with this.
It’s a global market and manufacturers around the world have to comply with standards set in the counties into which they want to export.
UK manufacturers for example have BRC or ISO standards they work to in order to ensure consistent manufacturing/supply standards.
These same certifications are global with audits taking place annually.