stalking club

[Monkey Spanker]

Ahh, welcome to the forum mate! I knew I'd get you on here eventually!
I think 'trust' is probably a key word here. There also needs to be a clear 'leader' of the group also, as the sterotypical 'autonomous collective' leads to arguments! Although myself and Peter are good friends and intermingle to help as required, we both each run a fairly 'tight ship' and would never dream of stepping on each other's toes. Group members are only taken on if they are known and trusted. I think it is natural to be sceptical at first as things that sound too good to be true generally are! Mr 'Pointblank' on here has already eluded to this. Once group members realise that they are part of a fairly unique and privelaged group, they become happy to co-exist and work as required.
I suppose any such group is only likely to begin with someone who already has a load of ground? If you are that person and you are struggling to manage, maybe consider taking on a helper or 'apprentice' and you may well find it is a weight lifted from you! Remember where you started and consider whether or not it is time to 'give something back'. Stalking can be a fairly lonely existance, but it can also be the start of long and lasting friendships. It's your choice really, but you can't take it with you when you're gone!
MS

 

[cjm1066]

MS The sort of group you describe is relatively easy to run, but ultimately a club tends to be democratic and thus can endure ling after the original members are no longer involved. That’s not a criticism of your set-up, just an observation, and your arrangement may well develop over time.

 

[Cuthbert]

I know we live in a cynical world where we are suspicious of people's intentions and aim to protect the empires we build and thats great, it should be done; but does this slow progress to a degree? There was always a risk that I could take someone on when I decided to start the group and they quickly turn around and rob me of the land I work, but I take the view that you just add it to lifes experience. Yes that door may have closed on you and that can be really annoying but if you dig in, stay focussed and have a clear aim of what you want then what is the next door that opens, could this be even better than what you had before (better land, different deer species etc.)? I am eluding to personal experience here and I would say that I have had to loose land to gain land but, looking beyond this, its not only land you gain, its new people, new ideas and new oppotunities to say the least. All of this helps build knowledge and broadens ones character thus when that big oppotunity does present itself, you are in the best position to show you are the ideal candidate to take up the challenge.

I think what I am getting at (before I loose the context of this thread) is that yes, there is a risk but (as we all know in this day and age) risks can be managed and this is part of what I do as the group leader. I dont just manage the deer work, I manage the people, documentation and the direction of the group (to name a few things). You have to decide (being a stalker with lots of land) if you want to take the risk (of starting a group) and can you manage the risk you take? If the answer is no then that's OK in my mind, I completely understand the reasons for keeping your stalking tight and wish you well as I know the pressures involves and how hard it is. However, If the answer is yes you do want to take the risk then look at how much of a risk you can realistically manage. This will determine things like which estates you allow others to stalk for you (how bothered would be if you lost it?) and what type of person you take on etc. etc.

There are lots of complexities to running a group but I do stick to my original post that all things considered, it is still reletivly easy to do.

I hope this isnt too rambling and you can spot some useful insights into my thinking with taking the group decision.

Thanks

 

[legaleagle69]

I think that Cuthbert and Monkey Spanker have it sussed to run a small syndicate type association, but to run a club is a different matter entirely it would need to be small local groups, exactly how it works on the continent.
A hunting club, same way as there are lots of fishing clubs, these do work but my cynicism is that there are always fall outs over something or the other, in Europe they band together in a different way, look at the french when they are being crapped on by their government everyone bands together, even the cops!!
Therefore your leader arrangement won't work as he could trot of with the permission and leave others high and dry, this would not be a club just another syndicate.
It would need to be an arrangement where the club held the land and charter stating the aims of the organisation would be administered by a commitee would take care of the running so then it is democratic and transparent.
So as above unlikely it will ever happenin the extreme, if it did I would be the first up there in line.

 

[Cuthbert]

I can see your thinking but personally I believe that by going down the club route we are talking about handing land over. This puts the land out of my control, presented risk that cannot be managed by myself and changing the dynamics of the relationship with the land owners over which I stalk. Many land owners do not want clubs or syndicates, I have investigated this route and this is not what the group is trying to acheive. Ultimately, the stalking is my stalking built up through my own reputation and hard work and importantly I am choosing to share this with others. if the group wanted me to hand this land over to a club format, then the answer is no, you dont pay me to shoot and I allow you to make money from your carcasses in return for helping me out - end of. If they wanted to go down that route then the door would be closed and I would go back to sole stalking again. This demonstrates the wrong type of people I would look for in my group and goes against what I am trying to acheive which is to ultimately open up stalking for others.

That said, I have a good bunch of guys (and girls) who help me out and we have a good relationship all round which I am sure will continue.

 

[Cuthbert]

Reading this post back it looks like I am having a dig at legaleagle, apologies as this isnt my intention..

 

[Cuthbert]

Just a further update: Reading the posts again, I do agree with legaleagle's point now I understand its context. I think that if a group of people form and collectively gather land to shoot over and the group grows over time then yes, a leader could decide to take all of the land thus robbing the others of their sport. In this scenerio, the leader would may need to be elected and decisions made via some form of commitee where everyone in the group is involved in the decision making.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

I think that Cuthbert and Monkey Spanker have it sussed to run a small syndicate type association, but to run a club is a different matter entirely it would need to be small local groups, exactly how it works on the continent.
A hunting club, same way as there are lots of fishing clubs, these do work but my cynicism is that there are always fall outs over something or the other, in Europe they band together in a different way, look at the french when they are being crapped on by their government everyone bands together, even the cops!!
Therefore your leader arrangement won't work as he could trot of with the permission and leave others high and dry, this would not be a club just another syndicate.
It would need to be an arrangement where the club held the land and charter stating the aims of the organisation would be administered by a commitee would take care of the running so then it is democratic and transparent.
So as above unlikely it will ever happenin the extreme, if it did I would be the first up there in line.

Legal, small local groups is exactly what we are? There is probably a very thin line between what constitutes a 'club' rather than a 'syndicate' maybe? Clubs may also be democratic but will generally have a chairman to take the lead on organisation. There will generally always have to be one leaseholder for legal purposes surely?
Call us what you will, and be a cynical as you like, but we have been running like this for several years now without any issues. I'm sure there are numerous stalkers who would love to be involved with a similar arrangement? Sadly, we are limited by geography and availability. We are not after any praise nor criticism. We merely wish to offer ideas for future development of similar 'clubs' as was asked by the OP.
MS

 

[legaleagle69]

Hi Cuthbert no offense taken, as I was trying to say that in your position your idea is the best way forward, why would you wish to lose control of what you have, very few of us would.
What I was actually saying was that the post was about forming a hunting club rather than a syndicate, for this some land would need to be acquired, in Europe I believe often the local clubs actually administer government land. so maybe the equivalent would be forresty land, only way this will happen is if our glorious leader Dave Cammeron is reading & thinks its a good idea lol

Lovely thought but this is not the British way, sadly we would rather back bite and do each other down, that is why the asian emigrants came here and wiped everything up, they work together & reap the rewards, maybe there is a lesson to be learned .. :idea:

 

[legaleagle69]

MS not dissing you in any way, rather saying you have it sussed, I think it is brilliant what you have done, but to be brutally honest yours is the exception rather than the rule.
To be a club, then it would be the club that owned the lease or ground not an indivual, or then it would be a syndicate.
I have been told there is actually one that opperates near us with stalking, rough shooting & duck, I have been asking round for months but cannot get hold of anyone who can say for sure who to approach, they appear to be very cautious of even speaking to anyone who they do not know, they are a shooting club but they are quite dificult to get hold of and it is a case of knowing someone to get in.

I think what a proper club would be is where a person wanting to enter the sport could join without any need to "know someone" and be judged on their own merits.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

What I was actually saying was that the post was about forming a hunting club rather than a syndicate, for this some land would need to be acquired, in Europe I believe often the local clubs actually administer government land.

Such 'clubs' already exist also!
The Services Branch of the BDS (Defence Deer Management) has about 300 members and manage the deer on all MOD land throughout the UK. There's a nice big 'club' surely?
MS

 

[legaleagle69]

MS that is an MOD club .. I know several guys who were/are members, they use MOD land that we mere mortals ain't going to get that type of access you know that as well as I do.
If anyone can find a way in to get this going as I said I will be the first man to slap them on the back.

 

[legaleagle69]

In fact I will put my cards on the table, my personal opinions are considered by some as quite radical, all publically owned land should be opened up to the public to hunt or fish on, not tendered out by the FC then shot over with lamps at the same time as taking the poor sods dosh.
For example if you spend the money, time and effort getting your DSC qualifications then surely you should be considered safe to shoot & with all these deer that are causing a nuisance on FC lands why not do it like they do in some other countries, you get a permit and off you go.
It belongs to us why shouldn't we have use of it .. same argument never going to happen, doesn't work like that over here unless you have someone in power on your side you will get knowhere .. the MOD Club have high ranking officers who are in the right circles, that is why it works, and why I doubt anything else has a snowball in hells chance.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Just an idea.
If you take someone out on your land for a stalk as a favour or whatever other reason. Make them first sign a legally binding disclaimer & clarify to them the meaning of it and why it being asked for, that they will not go behind your back to steal or otherwise attempt to obtain your sporting rights - with an agreed sum of punishment say 30K that must be paid to you if proven. Then they know the score and you have a legal contract to sue them with.
Martin

 

[norma 308]

Had to sign a similar thing with a guy who wanted me to go into business with him doing pest control .......I didn't go into business with him and nor would I go stalking with someone who wanted me to sign such a document .what a bitter taste that would leave as you got to the wood to go stalking erhhhh.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Just an idea that came to mind after reading the various posts on here. Of course it is signalling distrust up front but PTA.
It can not affect me as I am based in Germany and here the sporting rights and responsibilities are locked in for a 9 or 12 year contract so you cannot go in behind someones back to take over a lease and also the farmers generally prefer hunter continuity rather than the last dollar/euro.
I have had all the free hunting invites that I can manage so far. I hope next year that 200 hectares opens up for me then I can return the favours that I have enjoyed.
Martin

 

[Monkey Spanker]

these do work but my cynicism is that there are always fall outs over something or the other,

I have been told there is actually one that opperates near us with stalking, rough shooting & duck, I have been asking round for months but cannot get hold of anyone who can say for sure who to approach, they appear to be very cautious of even speaking to anyone who they do not know, they are a shooting club but they are quite dificult to get hold of and it is a case of knowing someone to get in.

I think what a proper club would be is where a person wanting to enter the sport could join without any need to "know someone" and be judged on their own merits.

In fact I will put my cards on the table, my personal opinions are considered by some as quite radical,

Legal, your radical opinions and cynicism might just be why you cannot find any further information on your local 'club'!
To be a valued and respected member of any club you would need to be a 'team player' and work together towards a common goal. A club surely needs to be a cohesive group bonded by trust and knowledge of each other, rather than a group of individuals loosely joined by a piece of paper? The only way you can become a member of such a club is to be known and trusted and this will most definitely be on merit. It's certainly the only way you join my 'team'!

Please take this as nothing more than constructive criticism as I believe we have proved that it can be achieved, but only with the right sort of people!
MS

 

[Pine Marten]

The fundamental problem underlying all this is access to suitable land. Unless stalkers actually own land, they can have their stalking taken away from them pretty much at any time. You mentioned wildfowling clubs and the situation there is exactly the same. Most of them don’t own the land they shoot on, and as a result they often lose their shooting when ownership changes, or someone offers more money to the owner. And similarly, a fair few ‘fowling clubs are pretty much closed shops that jealously guard their patch against all comers, partly because of distrust. But then at the other end, you have clubs like the KWCA which has been buying as much land as possible for decades now having realised that this is the only way of guaranteeing enduring access to land to shoot over. It’s also an open club that accepts pretty much all applicants and gives them the benefit of the doubt. Shooting pressure is kept at a sustainable level through a system of permits. There’s absolutely no reason why you couldn’t have a similar setup for stalking. As regards the deer management aspect, assuming most of the members would be recreational stalkers, tags could be issued much as is done in the US or France. I’d certainly join such a club.

 

[legaleagle69]

Pine Martin is pretty much on the money following the wildfowlers example, it could be done .. but won't look at this thread already we are at odds.

I am probably one of the most trusting people you could meet MS, quite often to my own detriment, and the cyniscm is born of 30 odd years of experience that has made me a realist, those who know me would I am sure vouch for my integrity, well I would hope so, given that I have never taken advantage of anyone in any way that has taken me into their confidence or invited me to stalk or fish with them.

The reason the local club is difficult to get to know is they treat it all as a jealously guarded secret, several folk I asked have told me it is a "dead mans shoes" affair, they do not know me and I have never approached them directly so I would not wish to speculate.

I know it is a radical view for a member of the public to have use of public land, but hey I'm funny like that, Jimmy Reid is one of my big heroes so maybe I will never take to being a fully paid up member of the "rat race".

You stating "my team" says it all MS, your little group you control, which if it works for you is fine, I do not want to your detract from acheivement in anyway, I already said that what you had done is admirable, but it is not a club.

So here is my constructive critism for what it's worth,

Would I like to be part of a group with the camaradary that goes with it, hell yes I would, it is a great feeling to have a bunch of good mates to rely on and spend weekends away with.

But would I want to be part of someones team in the same way I remember this when I was a kid, the you can't be in our gang because you have differing views .. thanks but no thanks..

I prefer to go down the other route where everyone has the right as the rest of the membership, and if someone is to be judged it should be on their merits alone.. nuff said .. I truly hope someone does get one of the ground it would be a fantastic achievement.

 

[Heym SR20]

My Pennies worth.

1) I am with legal - Public Land should be that - Public Land. There should be a system as in the US / Canada and mainland Europe, where public can gain hunting access to public land.

It should n't be a free for all - you will have to have some form of permit system, and each piece of ground would be different. The tag system probably works pretty well - you get a tag - you may have to pay for it to shoot a particular type of deer - say a spiker, 6 pointer etc, yeald hind within a fairly short time period - say 3 days or a week. When you have shot the animal you have to take it to the local Ranger t verify the tag has been used.

To be eligible for a permit you may have to live within a certain radius of the ground, and / or have to have a certain level of qualification - say DSC1.

2) Clubs - there are many different types, some very organised with rigid rules etc. Others just a bunch of guys / girls with like minded interests. What they all require is some dedicated individuals at the centre, but I certainly vere towards the latter style.