The Creedmoor conundrum

[Tim.243]

Smh...and that is the crux of the problem, and why the UK shoooting/hunting community finds itself in the position it is today. But hey, if that works for you , even if it screws over your other countrymen. But, that seems par for the course...

Yes you are TOLD to wear
My 2 rifles no tags and a blend in not dressed like E Fudd
State rules require hunters to wear a minimum of 400 square inches of fluorescent hunter orange and/or fluorescent hunter pink exterior clothing under specific conditions. This fluorescent clothing must be worn above the waist and be visible from all sides.

 

[MarinePMI]

Yes you are TOLD to wear
My 2 rifles no tags and a blend in not dressed like E Fudd
State rules require hunters to wear a minimum of 400 square inches of fluorescent hunter orange and/or fluorescent hunter pink exterior clothing under specific conditions. This fluorescent clothing must be worn above the waist and be visible from all sides.

You clearly don't understand our laws (not surprising). It depends on the particular state as well as what you're hunting. As usual, you prove again that you don't know as much as you think you do...sigh...

 

[Taff]

<chuckle> No doubt.

Two of our large states (out of 50) have more population than the whole of the UK.

And my county (San Diego) has 2/3's the population of the whole country of New Zealand.

You must love it , how big is your county. My point was that manufacturers have to keep reinventing calibres otherwise we would get bored and they would go bust.

 

[Tim.243]

You clearly don't understand our laws (not surprising). It depends on the particular state as well as what you're hunting. As usual, you prove again that you don't know as much as you think you do...sigh...

Just had a look yes you are correct but looking at the rules (you have so many) you need a licence from the government so say where you live San Diego you can take 2 deer per hunter a season? lol
Nearly every state has a colour requirement with yours being strongly advised

Tag permit or stamp for every thing...! Far to restrictive

Just had a look in my year book from Jan 68 deer 35 foxes a modest 400 pigeons in my tiny county and only 2 rifles in a 25 mile radius.

Yes you can have lots of guns and ammo but with such restrictive government rules on what you can hunt what to wear and when, give me England every time.

The old saying with a US slant on it " All dressed up and only one tag"

 

[tackb]

Just had a look yes you are correct but looking at the rules (you have so many) you need a licence from the government so say where you live San Diego you can take 2 deer per hunter a season? lol
Nearly every state has a colour requirement with yours being strongly advised

Tag permit or stamp for every thing...! Far to restrictive

Just had a look in my year book from Jan 68 deer 35 foxes a modest 400 pigeons in my tiny county and only 2 rifles in a 25 mile radius.

Yes you can have lots of guns and ammo but with such restrictive government rules on what you can hunt what to wear and when, give me England every time.

The old saying with a US slant on it " All dressed up and only one tag"

imagine if there was no restrictions on firearms and tons of public land in the UK it would be a free for all and the wild deer/ animal population would be decimated - humans are greedy the world over !

our laws are ridiculous here in the UK with a slant on removing personal firearm ownership and i wish our laws were more in line with the states personally , i can own a rifle dangerous effectively out to 1000m yet can't own a 9mm pistol for target shooting - either i am safe with firearms or not ? can you make it make sense for me?

 

[Tim.243]

imagine if there was no restrictions on firearms and tons of public land in the UK it would be a free for all and the wild deer/ animal population would be decimated - humans are greedy the world over !

our laws are ridiculous here in the UK with a slant on removing personal firearm ownership and i wish our laws were more in line with the states personally , i can own a rifle dangerous effectively out to 1000m yet can't own a 9mm pistol for target shooting - either i am safe with firearms or not ? can you make it make sense for me?

Would you want a 2 deer a year tag season? comparing one US state system to ours it would take me 34 years to shoot what I have managed this season so far with out the foxes lol

 

[tackb]

Would you want a 2 deer a year tag season? comparing one US state system to ours it would take me 34 years to shoot what I have managed this season so far with out the foxes lol

so you are the only one allowed to shoot deer?

i think you kind of missed my point

 

[Tim.243]

so you are the only one allowed to shoot deer?

i think you kind of missed my point

No I never missed your point just asked if you would want a 2 deer tag system, Re pistols or shooting out to a 1000yds I would spend that time in the field not on a range.
I have shot club .22lr .303 when I was 14 but also far more time on farms.
Yes the public land free for all would be a disaster, I am quite happy to do what I do but it seems so many are not content and like this modern world want more all the time.

 

[tackb]

No I never missed your point just asked if you would want a 2 deer tag system, Re pistols or shooting out to a 1000yds I would spend that time in the field not on a range.
I have shot club .22lr .303 when I was 14 but also far more time on farms.
Yes the public land free for all would be a disaster, I am quite happy to do what I do but it seems so many are not content and like this modern world want more all the time.

this very much smacks of 'I'm alright pull the ladder up'

but that's ok as i have already stated that people are greedy.......

 

[Tim.243]

this very much smacks of 'I'm alright pull the ladder up'

but that's ok as i have already stated that people are greedy.......

I say ban the ranges then more materials for the stalkers
Where is my rope ladder or is that snakes stalkers & ladders

 

[6pt-sika]

The 6.5 Crudmoor was the answer to a question that didn’t exist . Put the same twist barrel on a 260 REM you have the same thing . Even by not changing the twist the 260 shines in practical application . The 243 was unveiled I believe in 1955 and again the Crudmoor version was something developed purely to generate sales . Now I will say getting others involved in shooting sports because they read about some whiz bang new cartridge is for the most part a good thing . But I’ll never own either I’ve used a multitude of 243’s and 260’s over the years and see no reason to change . Now before you comment about factory ammo I couldn’t give two shytes as I’m gonna handload anyway regardless of the cartridge . I suppose at 63 I’ve reached the crotchety old guy stage of life !

 

[MarinePMI]

The 6.5 Crudmoor was the answer to a question that didn’t exist . Put the same twist barrel on a 260 REM you have the same thing . Even by not changing the twist the 260 shines in practical application . The 243 was unveiled I believe in 1955 and again the Crudmoor version was something developed purely to generate sales . Now I will say getting others involved in shooting sports because they read about some whiz bang new cartridge is for the most part a good thing . But I’ll never own either I’ve used a multitude of 243’s and 260’s over the years and see no reason to change . Now before you comment about factory ammo I couldn’t give two shytes as I’m gonna handload anyway regardless of the cartridge . I suppose at 63 I’ve reached the crotchety old guy stage of life !

Sure it did. The question was "Why doesn't Remington support the .260 by making brass?", which was intermittently available until the 6.5 Creedmoor came on the scene. And then there was the retarded barrel twist that factory 260's had....

Basically, Hornady ate Big Green's lunch because they weren't paying attention or listening to consumers.

As to the 6mm CM, again, .243's didn't have the barrel twist from the factory to support the longer 105gr bullets used for long range shooting. If you remember, the Ruger RPR originally came in a fast twist .243...but no one made LR ammo in .243. Again, Hornady ate the industry's lunch...by listening to consumers.

Obviously, you are not industry's target demographic, so not surprising you don't care...which is why you aren't their target demographic.

The world has enough older, curmudgeon shooters. Most who are more than happy to bad mouth anything new, thereby discouraging new blood into the firearms' world. While it may be gratifying to be grumpy, it's actually a disservice to the community as a whole, and pretty short sighted (as well as self centered).

JMTCW...

 

[Laurie]

Yes you can have lots of guns and ammo but with such restrictive government rules on what you can hunt what to wear and when, give me England every time.

There's a very straightforward reason for the US deer numbers licensing system - an answer to the massive overculling that took place between the 1870s when the 44-40WCF and Winchester model 73 were introduced and the 1930s. Most US states had for instance no whitetail deer left in the wild by the early postwar period. They do so now because shooting them was banned for decades and they slowly spread back from their few remaining refuges, plus the numbers being allowed to be shot since being tightly controlled since. The equivalent here would be to virtually wipe the native Roe out.

We've done the same job in the UK as the US authorities through severely limiting legal rifle owner numbers not bag sizes. Arguably given that UK deer numbers have become so great they've now reached pest proportions in some areas, we've overdone the restrictions.

 

[MarinePMI]

There's a very straightforward reason for the US deer numbers licensing system - an answer to the massive overculling that took place between the 1870s when the 44-40WCF and Winchester model 73 were introduced and the 1930s. Most US states had for instance no whitetail deer left in the wild by the early postwar period. They do so now because shooting them was banned for decades and they slowly spread back from their few remaining refuges, plus the numbers being allowed to be shot since being tightly controlled since. The equivalent here would be to virtually wipe the native Roe out.

We've done the same job in the UK as the US authorities through severely limiting legal rifle owner numbers not bag sizes. Arguably given that UK deer numbers have become so great they've now reached pest proportions in some areas, we've overdone the restrictions.

Similarly, in the northeast of the US, deer have reached pest proportions as well. In the southeast it is similar. So much so, that Alabama has a 1 deer a day limit during a 30 day season. There are literally more deer in the US now, than there were when the pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock. In North Carolina, back in the early 90's we used to get "depredation tags" from the farmers to cull deer off their fields. It's partly what led to the founding of FHFH (Farmers & Hunters Feeding the Hungry), where we would participate in driven hunts to cull deer, and take all the animals to be processed for the homeless soup kitchens (you can only eat so much venison). It's still going on in that part of the country as far as I know.

 

[6pt-sika]

Sure it did. The question was "Why doesn't Remington support the .260 by making brass?", which was intermittently available until the 6.5 Creedmoor came on the scene. And then there was the retarded barrel twist that factory 260's had....

Basically, Hornady ate Big Green's lunch because they weren't paying attention or listening to consumers.

As to the 6mm CM, again, .243's didn't have the barrel twist from the factory to support the longer 105gr bullets used for long range shooting. If you remember, the Ruger RPR originally came in a fast twist .243...but no one made LR ammo in .243. Again, Hornady ate the industry's lunch...by listening to consumers.

Obviously, you are not industry's target demographic, so not surprising you don't care...which is why you aren't their target demographic.

The world has enough older, curmudgeon shooters. Most who are more than happy to bad mouth anything new, thereby discouraging new blood into the firearms' world. While it may be gratifying to be grumpy, it's actually a disservice to the community as a whole, and pretty short sighted (as well as self centered).

JMTCW...

Sure whatever you said . Barrel twist is easy enough to change . I actually don’t have an issue with the cartridges as such but rather a portion of as you call it the “demographic” they produced . Sit in a shop and listen to some of the , shall I use the term “shooters sportsman” that extol the printed virtues of the cartridges as if it’s gods gift . And in reality all they’ve done is read a bunch of stuff or watched some YouTube videos . I’ve probably fired more Crudmoors than the average Crudmoor supporter , they just weren’t out of guns I owned but raTher for others that didn’t care to do their own load development or even sight in their own rifles . As to new cartridges I dare say I’ve tried and experimented with 3/4’s to 7/8’s of the new sporting cartridges that have hit the market in the last 20-30 years at my own expense I might add . So while you wish to call me grumpy and or outdated you’re spouting a line of Shyte . You may encounter folks with a different attitude then those I have which is fair enough , but the clowns I’ve encountered over the last 7-10 years will make you grumpy .

 

[MarinePMI]

Sure whatever you said . Barrel twist is easy enough to change . I actually don’t have an issue with the cartridges as such but rather a portion of as you call it the “demographic” they produced . Sit in a shop and listen to some of the , shall I use the term “shooters sportsman” that extol the printed virtues of the cartridges as if it’s gods gift . And in reality all they’ve done is read a bunch of stuff or watched some YouTube videos . I’ve probably fired more Crudmoors than the average Crudmoor supporter , they just weren’t out of guns I owned but raTher for others that didn’t care to do their own load development or even sight in their own rifles . As to new cartridges I dare say I’ve tried and experimented with 3/4’s to 7/8’s of the new sporting cartridges that have hit the market in the last 20-30 years at my own expense I might add . So while you wish to call me grumpy and or outdated you’re spouting a line of Shyte . You may encounter folks with a different attitude then those I have which is fair enough , but the clowns I’ve encountered over the last 7-10 years will make you grumpy .

LOL! I think you just proved my point.

Have a nice day...

 

[6pt-sika]

Similarly, in the northeast of the US, deer have reached pest proportions as well. In the southeast it is similar. So much so, that Alabama has a 1 deer a day limit during a 30 day season. There are literally more deer in the US now, than there were when the pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock. In North Carolina, back in the early 90's we used to get "depredation tags" from the farmers to cull deer off their fields. It's partly what led to the founding of FHFH (Farmers & Hunters Feeding the Hungry), where we would participate in driven hunts to cull deer, and take all the animals to be processed for the homeless soup kitchens (you can only eat so much venison). It's still going on in that part of the country as far as I know.

We’ve had two per day all season long in my county of VA for about ten years now . As long as you buy bonus tags you can kill two per day all season long for a season that has turned into seven months . September until the end of March . There is a buck tag restriction of three per year , but the late antlerless season kinda negates that as many bucks have dropped their antlers and more than likely are killed if seen .

 

[Tim.243]

There's a very straightforward reason for the US deer numbers licensing system - an answer to the massive overculling that took place between the 1870s when the 44-40WCF and Winchester model 73 were introduced and the 1930s. Most US states had for instance no whitetail deer left in the wild by the early postwar period. They do so now because shooting them was banned for decades and they slowly spread back from their few remaining refuges, plus the numbers being allowed to be shot since being tightly controlled since. The equivalent here would be to virtually wipe the native Roe out.

We've done the same job in the UK as the US authorities through severely limiting legal rifle owner numbers not bag sizes. Arguably given that UK deer numbers have become so great they've now reached pest proportions in some areas, we've overdone the restrictions.

A fair point but look how well muntjac/Fallow have managed to expand and people have around 11 hrs of time each day to shoot them also 365 days (for the muntjac) of the year, SD has 33k of members so a huge potential to shoot deer so your restriction theory is a bit weak tbh. If you took 1000 sd members and they shot 1 deer a week each Just 1 that would be 50k so where would the restrictions have worked. ?
I have 2 rifles with an open ticket so the only restriction is weather also cover when the crops are high, those are not licencing restrictions on a number of guns I can have just a seasonal thing with cover/weather.
I could make the claim I need a .243 for shooting foxes at night or a .223 for muntjac just to have a 3rd/4th rifle (many do) but I choose not to.
Thousands of people have shotguns yet still the pigeon population grows each year so it is not a restriction, just people don't go, same with the deer.
A 38kg fallow will make around £65/68 a muntjac less than a fiver with the same amount of cost to shoot it, last week I accounted for 6 muntjac and no fallow but still 6 deer.
People in Scotland can shoot male deer all year round so you could just have 1 rifle and shoot 365 days of the year as I am sure you are aware.
If the US hunters are paying the price for those mistakes then so be it but they also have different options with BP Bow also
the rifle.

 

[kenbro]

In America many people go hunting for deer.
And some still take their pack horses and go off for a week or two, or more.
It’s hard graft but it’s not all about how many you can shoot.
In UK, some reconnoiter the land that they already (Because it’s comparatively tiny) know like the back of their hand.
They watch the deer and their movements then go out at their leisure and ambush them.
Then boast about how many they’ve shot!
Each to their own (Some are easily satisfied) but I know which should give a sportsman the most satisfaction.
Even hill stalking in the Highlands of Scotland doesn’t come close to hunting in parts of the USA/Canada.

When I was younger there was much more sense of achievement going out 2,3 or 4 days to get a deer than now being fluffing old and sitting in a tree to ambush things.
Still enjoy that a little bit too.
Kb.

 

[Tim.243]

In America many people go hunting for deer.
And some still take their pack horses and go off for a week or two, or more.
It’s hard graft but it’s not all about how many you can shoot.
In UK, some reconnoiter the land that they already (Because it’s comparatively tiny) know like the back of their hand.
They watch the deer and their movements then go out at their leisure and ambush them.
Then boast about how many they’ve shot!
Each to their own (Some are easily satisfied) but I know which should give a sportsman the most satisfaction.
Even hill stalking in the Highlands of Scotland doesn’t come close to hunting in parts of the USA/Canada.

When I was younger there was much more sense of achievement going out 2,3 or 4 days to get a deer than now being fluffing old and sitting in a tree to ambush things.
Still enjoy that a little bit too.
Kb.

Lets look at US sporting rooster hunting compared to 60yds driven pheasants in Wales
I know what I would give me more satisfaction.
or 15yds up the ar se...


Really sporting Ken