The people's republic of Scotland

[private fraser]

All jokes aside does not the Home Guard protest just a wee bit too much of late and in consequence signal nothing less than a Lowlander's self interest in the outcome??

K

Just for the record,my son-in-law has just got a job in the defence industry.
He and my stepdaughter were hoping to get their own place for themselves and their year old son.
It's all on hold now 'cos if it's Yes then Scotland won't have much if any defence industry,or capability for that matter.
My son-in-law has a PhD in geophysics, my step daughter has an honours degree and is a radiographer.
Their combined education must have cost a fortune.
They are thinking of going to Norway.
No loss then eh?.

Self interest?, yeah, you could say that.
All jokes aside.

 

[Wapinschaw]

All jokes aside does not the Home Guard protest just a wee bit too much of late and in consequence signal nothing less than a Lowlander's self interest in the outcome??

K

I don't think so. I think he is presenting reasoned questions and discussion points,which are largely ignored by one side of the debate because hyped up emotions provide no answers to reason and logic.

 

[LuckyEddie]

Ok so why should we trust the current bunch of politicians when
Previous Uk governments gave companies pension holidays and then proceeded to wipe out anything left in the pension schemes with taxation (both Cons & Labour)
A politician who says irrespective of what his constituents want he will vote no (Jimmy Hood - he has to as he's trying to save his job)
Governments who use Scotland as a testing ground for taxation (Cons)
Governments who sold half the Uk gold reserve when it was at an all time low (Gordon Brown)
Governments who loaned HBoS £4b (I can stand to be corrected on that figure) which then went on to try and raise funds with share issues but not declare the loan (illegally) only to collapse into shambles (Alastair Darling)
Governments who in 1974 said oil wouldn't last and Scotland would be better off as part of the Uk. (Cons)
Governments who sent our lads off to war on the justification that they were preventing greater atrocities by destroying weapons of mass destruction which in fact didn't exist (Tony Blair)
Governments who have now rationalised the armed forces to try and pay for the Trident replacement that we have hardly any conventional forces left ( Cons)
A party leader who says the Scots are to stupid to vote (Johann Lamont)
A politician who says that there will be no sharing of the pound or debt if Scotland win only to watch the pound fall to a 2year low (AD again)

Convince me now that they know what they are doing and not lying to
a) save their jobs because without Scottish oil England goes belly up
b) trying to win votes with promises of changes after the postal votes have gone out (which I believe is illegal)

I ask you convince me that these politicians are wiser and not as callow as their predecessors

 

[deeangeo]

Ok so why should we trust the current bunch of politicians?
I ask you convince me that these politicians are wiser and not as callow as their predecessors

You just answered your own question. When you put a cross in the box - all you get is another lying cheating scheming divisive politician. ATB

 

[Klenchblaize]

I don't think so. I think he is presenting reasoned questions and discussion points,which are largely ignored by one side of the debate because hyped up emotions provide no answers to reason and logic.

My comment should bee seen more as a keen awareness of the sudden panic-like ‎commentary that proliferates the no vote weighted media, rather than a dig at Private Fraser. ‎Such belated mobilisation of heated rhetoric being frankly counter productive at this stage and a clear admission this has not been handled at all well by Westminster.

Just my view as a Lowlander.

K ‎

 

[User00035]

...without Scottish oil England goes belly up

God alive. At which propaganda school were you indoctrinated?

Even going by the most optimistic figures North Sea oil receipts over the next 25 years are predicted at £51 billion (although economists and oil industry experts - what do they know? - have cut that to £39 billion). NHS England has an annual allocation of £95 billion. The city of London alone has an annual GVA of £309 billion. We'll manage.

 

[wivenhoe65]

Ok so why should we trust the current bunch of politicians when

a) save their jobs because without Scottish oil England goes belly up

I think you missed the other bits of the UK - remember Wales and Northern Ireland ?
Besides which i personally think that loosing whatever share of value there might be in any oil left (a debatable subject at best ) would be a bargain to be rid of all those Scottish Labour mp's , yes indeedy ,please all vote yes now !

 

[private fraser]

Ok so why should we trust the current bunch of politicians when
Previous Uk governments gave companies pension holidays and then proceeded to wipe out anything left in the pension schemes with taxation (both Cons & Labour)
A politician who says irrespective of what his constituents want he will vote no (Jimmy Hood - he has to as he's trying to save his job)
Governments who use Scotland as a testing ground for taxation (Cons)
Governments who sold half the Uk gold reserve when it was at an all time low (Gordon Brown)
Governments who loaned HBoS £4b (I can stand to be corrected on that figure) which then went on to try and raise funds with share issues but not declare the loan (illegally) only to collapse into shambles (Alastair Darling)
Governments who in 1974 said oil wouldn't last and Scotland would be better off as part of the Uk. (Cons)
Governments who sent our lads off to war on the justification that they were preventing greater atrocities by destroying weapons of mass destruction which in fact didn't exist (Tony Blair)
Governments who have now rationalised the armed forces to try and pay for the Trident replacement that we have hardly any conventional forces left ( Cons)
A party leader who says the Scots are to stupid to vote (Johann Lamont)
A politician who says that there will be no sharing of the pound or debt if Scotland win only to watch the pound fall to a 2year low (AD again)

Convince me now that they know what they are doing and not lying to
a) save their jobs because without Scottish oil England goes belly up
b) trying to win votes with promises of changes after the postal votes have gone out (which I believe is illegal)


I ask you convince me that these politicians are wiser and not as callow as their predecessors

The Yes group have promised that they will kill off certain industries and the jobs therein.
The other group will leave well alone or even invest in them.

That swings my vote.

 

[multiman]

Ive been reading this with much interest.
One simple question I thought of earlier is what happpens to the NHS up north? do you all then have to pay to see the doctor and any tratment?

 

[landkeeper]

has the eu membership or not issue been clarified??? the spanish /french and others have said there would be no entry into the eu for an independent Scotland whilst nervously looking at the Catalans and Basques

 

[private fraser]

has the eu membership or not issue been clarified??? the spanish /french and others have said there would be no entry into the eu for an independent Scotland whilst nervously looking at the Catalans and Basques

Alex say's it'll be fine.
That seems to satisfy some folk.

Personally I think that Scotland will be OK for RE-admission having first had to negotiate terms.
Any new countries admitted into the EEC must accept the Euro within two years.
End of.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Davie, there's the right smart choice and the emotional dumb ass one that will make poverty the norm and crush any chance our next generations have of a bright future.

There's simply no political talent in Scotland, no currency to go with, no plan, NO CHANCE OF LONG TERM SUCCESS. If we fail we take the rest of the UK with us because however we try to break off there's a hell of a lot of the UK economy still depending on us because of the trade and industry links.

 

[ELMER FUDD]

Following this for the last few days now both on here and on t.v etc and it looks like there are those that are happy with what they have and accept an English government and there are those that still hold a deep resentment for the English and are blinded by the bull---t they are fed and are willing to take a gamble just to have their freedom.

It really does look like a scene from Braveheart

 

[8x57]

Following this for the last few days now both on here and on t.v etc and it looks like there are those that are happy with what they have and accept an English government and there are those that still hold a deep resentment for the English and are blinded by the bull---t they are fed and are willing to take a gamble just to have their freedom.

It really does look like a scene from Braveheart

Probably without realising it you have shown the reason for the resentment by many Elmer. The use of the word English rather than British.


Personally I believe that Britain will be a much poorer place in many ways if the people of Scotland do decide to separate from the rest of the U.K. I like visiting Scotland and I like the majority of the people in Scotland, but it is their decision to make and not for anyone else to try and influence them. However I also believe if they should decide to become independent and separate from the rest of us then the break should be complete and absolute with no half measures or dallying about.

 

[NOTSHARP]

Alex say's it'll be fine.
That seems to satisfy some folk.

Personally I think that

Scotland will be OK for RE-admission

having first had to negotiate terms.
Any new countries admitted into the EEC must accept the Euro within two years.


End of.

The Nationalists, with their calls for "Freedom", certainly don't do irony, that's for sure.


I think that Scotland would be welcome to join, but they will not be dictating the terms of admission, and certainly not the timescale.




Steve.

 

[Mungo]

No - they really don't do irony. Or indeed much requiring any kind of higher cognitive faculty.

Any sovereignty gained from Westminster will be given away to Brussels almost the following morning.

Is there anyone on here still thinking of voting yes? Forget all the other arguments - if you still want your guns and the freedom to persue your stalking (or other field sports), you're going to have to vote No and pray for a No vote. Or take up golf.

 

[Scots_stalker]

The constant belittling of yes voters. Telling them they are dumb , too stupid. Etc , to make an informed vote is whats firing the yes vote

 

[Mungo]

The constant belittling of yes voters. Telling them they are dumb , too stupid. Etc , to make an informed vote is whats firing the yes vote

My criticism was aimed at the politicians, not the voters.

People on both sides are prefectly capable of making an informed vote. Sadly, information is one thing that is very sorely lacking, and both sides have substituted vague promises, vieled threats and baldly asserted personal conviction as fact.

With regard to perhaps the core issue - that of sovereignty - the SNP have been very disingenuous indeed. They really have not acknowledged the extent to which power will merely transfer from London to Brussels - in fact, here, as in a few other critical places, I think they have actually deliberatly misled people.

So I think Yes voters are just as intelligent (or unintelligent) as No voters. I do, however, question both the intelligence and honesty of the Yes politicians.

That's not to say the No politicians are any better - but we can at least examine what they're offering (ie. the state we live in).

 

[User00035]

No - they really don't do irony. Or indeed much requiring any kind of higher congnitive faculty.

Anysovereignty gained from Westminster will be given away to Brussels almost the following morning.

That indeed is the proposed scenario except that I don't think Scotland will be admitted to the EU, at least not immediately. Spain and Belgium which both have deeply contentious separatists issues of their own have already indicated that they will vote against. New member states must be voted in unanimously by all existing members. There'll be no sneaking in with 51% of the vote.
I think the EU will find a formula to accept a briefly independent Scotland because they will be aware that without Scottish votes the chances of the rest of the UK voting to leave the EU will have risen substantially; but Scotland will be made to sweat for a period in economic purgatory during which Europe's drive towards political homogenisation will have advanced and Scotland's admittance will come at a very high price.

This might take several years during which Labour will have lost its disproportionate influence on British politics, the Conservatives will have ejected Cameron and his Blair-lite modernisers and split with the right wing majority reabsorbing UKIP and reforming a natural party of government that will see the UK formally committed to leaving the EU or even having completed the process already. If that happens Scotland will be politically, culturally and economically more isolated and imperilled than it has ever been in its history.

 

[Mungo]

Sorry - tried to post a link that failed.