The progression of copper ammo

[homer]

Ok guys, now that copper ammo has been around for a few years, and many companies are producing heads/bullets, which have improved vastly since the original offerings, I have a few questions.
1, what heads do you find give you the best results (as in, shoot deer deer falls over, or deer only runs short distance). I realise shot placement has alot to do with this answer.

2, do you find that you are getting better results from copper than you did with lead? (If so, why?)

3, have you used copper and went back to lead, or stayed with copper and will do in the future. (Even if lead isn't banned!)

 

[artschool]

i switched years ago because i hunt in germany and didn’t want to have multiple types of round.

i use norma eco strike 150gr in 308. hunting roe deer i have had no issues. i have had a muntjac run and a fox run because i think the round stripped straight through.

i have also had a boar run with the 308 for similar reason so am switching to copper 250gr 375 for that.

anecdotally i have had to ask to use copper on a syndicate because they have seen too much meat damage from copper.

planning on staying with copper.

 

[long_range_rob]

Been using copper for some years. Initially had runners especially with Barnes (£1 coin sized exit wound and bleeding into chest cavity) but now on Sako blade which work just like lead only 3 times the price. I will continue to use lead on fox etc and on deer where permitted but apart from the price copper is actually ok now.

 

[Selous]

I started using copper bullets 22 years ago for stalking as my wife told me we weren’t feeding our new baby venison with lead in it. I find the Barnes TTSX to be very reliable indeed especially when you use a light for calibre bullet -130 grain in 308 and 120 grain in 7mm. With enough muzzle velocity deer seldom go more than a few steps when shot mid way up the chest in line with the centre of the front leg on a broadside shot. I find I get better results with these bullets than any of the lead core bullets that I used before and I wouldn’t consider going back to lead core bullets for the UK.
I have used other designs, the Yew Tree work very well but I have seen penetration of the diaphragm from petals breaking off. I now use these for longer ranges if this can be anticipated.
The Virtus designs worked ok but I found less emphatic and I had some that caused relatively little internal damage. One hind in particular where the wound tract looked like it had been created with a knitting needle!

 

[Jon P]

Used copper for a few years, found it as accurate as lead ammunition, with copper I found limited meat damage on chest shots, does have limited expansion on headshots, most of our deer are head shot. Currently using lead as I can at present and it is a bit cheaper option. Cal. 30-06

 

[Eddie P]

I started using copper bullets 22 years ago for stalking as my wife told me we weren’t feeding our new baby venison with lead in it. I find the Barnes TTSX to be very reliable indeed especially when you use a light for calibre bullet -130 grain in 308 and 120 grain in 7mm. With enough muzzle velocity deer seldom go more than a few steps when shot mid way up the chest in line with the centre of the front leg on a broadside shot. I find I get better results with these bullets than any of the lead core bullets that I used before and I wouldn’t consider going back to lead core bullets for the UK.
I have used other designs, the Yew Tree work very well but I have seen penetration of the diaphragm from petals breaking off. I now use these for longer ranges if this can be anticipated.
The Virtus designs worked ok but I found less emphatic and I had some that caused relatively little internal damage. One hind in particular where the wound tract looked like it had been created with a knitting needle!

I'm the same, but it's my decision to go lead free (not the wife) due to a baby. Ignoring emotions, lead in a diet of a baby with a developing brain is undesirable.

There is enough evidence out there to persuade anyone who focuses on facts and not emotions.

My choice is pereguine VLR4

 

[baguio]

I use 6.5LRX and I find them better than lead in every aspect except the cost:

 

[hoodwink]

I have used various copper projectiles, the one i least liked was Fox 130g in 308 due to no expansion at very close range, only a couple of times but the unpredictability was unnerving.
I have used Sellior and Bellot blue in 6.5 ever since for the same woodland shooting and not had the same problem, they may over expand sometimes but that for this close work has been no issue.
I use Lrx 139g out of a 280ai going probably too fast as i am finding these a little too explosive ( Fallow) but maybe longer range Reds. Would be ideal, i think.
I am trying the 114 g yew tree for the 6.5 they seem accurate but I haven’t shot enough for any meaningful conclusion,
Over all, they just are not as consistent as the previous lead projectiles I was using apart from S&B at close quarter.(100m or under)
The lead i found to be the best was the Partition, and i thought that was expensive! I would also use Hornady Interlock,Speer BTSP.non had any issues.

 

[devon deer stalker]

Copper has come on a long way
I have tried a few, Barnes TTSX 80g in my .243 has proved very effective on all species (except Sika as I've yet to shoot one) but I use Yew Tree in my Swede and they certainly do the business.
For people who have experienced 'runners' I say practice a bit more on your shot placement as deer shot with lead can easily run with poor shot placement

 

[ofbiro]

Ok guys, now that copper ammo has been around for a few years, and many companies are producing heads/bullets, which have improved vastly since the original offerings, I have a few questions.
1, what heads do you find give you the best results (as in, shoot deer deer falls over, or deer only runs short distance). I realise shot placement has alot to do with this answer.

2, do you find that you are getting better results from copper than you did with lead? (If so, why?)

3, have you used copper and went back to lead, or stayed with copper and will do in the future. (Even if lead isn't banned!)

1. Barnes with 7 mm Rem. Mag. Hasler with .30-06.
2. Same results (Cu vs. Pb) in terms of accuracy and effect on the quarry.
3. I went back to lead to finish my stock, before non lead becomes compulsory

 

[patjack]

Also been using Non lead for years now, below is a recovered 130 TTSX Barnes form a .308 @ 2970 fps very mature heavy Fallow buck, I have only had a few runners and that would have happened with any bullet construction or type of that I'm sure of, I use Yewtree in a 6.5 also and they are very effective though a bit brutal on the smaller deer at less than 150mts.

I would never go back to lead cup & core bullets for stuff that is consumed by me or others.

Runners will probably happen on some occasions but most drop to the shot.

 

[Shootgun]

I haven't used lead in over 10 years and i will never will again .
RWS HIT in 7mm RM, Sako Blade in .270 and Winchester Extreme Point Cooper Impact in .243 is what i use.

 

[nun_hunter]

Sako Blade in 6.5mm and 308 I have found very accurate and work better than lead in the sense they drop deer the same but less wasted meat.

They are quite pricey but I don't shoot enough deer for it to be an issue. I expect running my single chiller for 2 weeks to hang the deer costs more than the bullet does.

I did reload some yewtree but to be honest they weren't any more accurate than the blades and with the petals separating there was more risk of added damage where I didn't want it. Plus the cost of developing a load ate into any savings that were to be had.

 

[homer]

What's peoples opinions on copper bullets for neck shooting? Do they open up enough or would some makes be better than others?

 

[Shootgun]

What's peoples opinions on copper bullets for neck shooting? Do they open up enough or would some makes be better than others?

Providing you aim straight, they drop on the spot. 90% of my shooting is neck and head, never had any problems.

 

[artschool]

For people who have experienced 'runners' I say practice a bit more on your shot placement as deer shot with lead can easily run with poor shot placement

both of my shots were at 70m and placement was fine. so i still think that copper doesn’t seem to dump energy like lead on smaller animals.

happy to be proven wrong or if someone has an article on it?

 

[Rural Management Services]

Sako Blade in 120gr 6.5 or .308 are very effective and accurate. Same with S&B Blue in 6.5CM. I have a 4 digit amount of deer on the deck with the above now and no complaints with performance personally.

Switched to Yew Tree 102.4 6.5 and 119gr .308 at the beginning of this year and well into triple digits with no issues that weren’t self inflicted so far. Laser accuracy and I get good expansion even on head and neck shots on small deer.

In answer to the question would I go back to lead, firstly I can’t but even if I could I wouldn’t.

I think people’s issues with non lead ammo are either poor shooting that uses the copper boogie man as the excuse for poor placement or wrong bullet choice. There are allot of very large and tough non lead options on the UK market that are not suitable for our deer. I have no idea why is distribution network even bothers bringing in anything non leas that is larger than 150gr to be honest because it’s not needed here. Even boar don’t really need that in this country due to the majority being shot from close range from a high seat. By this I mean the stuff that is aimed at the German driven boar market, Scandinavian moose market or for shooting Elk/bears etc in the states. All of these animals require a bit more penetration and energy to drop the animal than say a roe doe and therefore the bullets are made that way. If you shoot a 180gr hard copper round that is designed to stop a 100kg half armoured running boar at a 15kg deer it’s going to pass straight through because the round is looking for the tougher boar shoulder to expand against and therefore dump its energy.

Keep the bullets light for calibre, fairly fast and most importantly I the right place and non lead works just fine.

 

[Shootgun]

both of my shots were at 70m and placement was fine. so i still think that copper doesn’t seem to dump energy like lead on smaller animals.

happy to be proven wrong or if someone has an article on it?

I shot a fallow yesterday at 300 yards with the .270 120 grains Sako Blade, it only run 15 yards before it dropped. That's good enough for me.
At normal distances they drop on the spot.

 

[nun_hunter]

both of my shots were at 70m and placement was fine. so i still think that copper doesn’t seem to dump energy like lead on smaller animals.

happy to be proven wrong or if someone has an article on it?

What type of copper bullet were you using and what do you mean by "placement was fine" in relation to thise two shots and the bullet you were using?

Copper, same as lead comes in different varieties and suitable shot placement varies accordingly.

I wouldn't use the same shot placement with a bonded lead core bullet as I would with a V-Max. Likewise just wouldn't use a 6mm vmax on a chest shot red deer stag at 300m but for a 70m head shot that's a different outcome.

 

[cjm1066]

Lead works nicely at rimfire velocities.

When we got smokeless powder and velocities increased we started using jackets on lead bullets so they didn’t strip in the rifling, then various designs H mantle/Hot core etc to retard expansion.

Barnes were perhaps the first to explore all copper type bullets, at the velocities we are using expansion is delivered.

More expensive, but only one component so probably more consistent/accurate than jacket bullets in most circumstances. Lots of new designs manufactures, we are making progress.

Personally I doubt I will ever shoot a deer with lead again.

I suspect in 50 years’ time if we aren’t shooting deer with contraceptives we will wonder why we ever used lead?