Throat erosion - a word of warning

I’m sure the deer don’t bother it’s doing. “Only 2700 “ We’re they groups not bughole ?

Thing is Paul, Nigel's trying to set up the rifle for long range target shooting. 1000m. How the deer feel about it is irrelevant. I've had a go at this recently with 6.5s and with two rifles side-by-side its quite something to see the difference. OK mine is a Howa Varmint and Phil's is a DTA SRS-A1, and believe me even though that Howa goes bloody well, the DTA was in a different class. Its engineering is pretty special, as you would hope for a USD 5,000 rifle. The smallest of margins get amplified massively every 100m and make a big difference by the time the target is reached. Or missed.

But I know you fellas already know that... but maybe you're temporarily forgetting. LR is a precision game, everything needs to be perfect.
 
Thing is Paul, Nigel's trying to set up the rifle for long range target shooting. 1000m. How the deer feel about it is irrelevant. I've had a go at this recently with 6.5s and with two rifles side-by-side its quite something to see the difference. OK mine is a Howa Varmint and Phil's is a DTA SRS-A1, and believe me even though that Howa goes bloody well, the DTA was in a different class. Its engineering is pretty special, as you would hope for a USD 5,000 rifle. The smallest of margins get amplified massively every 100m and make a big difference by the time the target is reached. Or missed.

But I know you fellas already know that... but maybe you're temporarily forgetting. LR is a precision game, everything needs to be perfect.



Surely velocity on its own is no magic key for LR?

And velocity of chrono is “hard data”

If you have the accuracy node you pinch known speed in to your app or whatever and it will give you your drops surely ?

Ok that’s it in its toughest form .... Nigel one of a small percent that’s actually shooting out LR

Those shooting deer at moderate ranges I don’t get the velocity obsession .

Paul
 
For me it's simply just aboutgetting the best out a rifle. A 24" barreled 6.5x47 should easily be able to propel a 130 grain bullet in excess of 2800. I will use this rifle not only on deer but on steel out to moderate distance 600 or so ( where Dodgy likely shoots goats with his 243 and a 6x42 :lol:).
My point was more aimed at RS62 itself, which seems to underperform a wee bit, although it could easily be that it's just borderline with the 130s and maybe better suited to heavier like 139/143. I'm not able to find an upper accuracy node as the loads would just be too compressed, which is something the design of the TMKs doesn't like, deforms them badly trying to seat them.
 
The question has to be does it still shoot? We're talking about 0.03mm less rifling in the barrel (thats not even the thickness of a sheet of paper if I'm doing my maths correctly - its been a while since GCSE!) so I would say if it still shoots then keep going until it doesnt. Even if you put another 800 shots through it thats still only 0.6mm.

I do recall reading another thread on here that someone HAD bought a bore scope and was horrified by what they saw - bits missing in the rifling, micro cracks, streaks and god knows what else. The rifle still shot sweet as a nut though.
 
Now here's an interesting one.

Had a good chat with a fellow SD member on the phone last night. He runs 6.5x47 Lapua and 129 ABLR's over a stout load of RS60/RL17 which is a worse barrel burner than my RL15. He is getting 2930 fps vs my 2910 fps so a touch hotter than me.

His barrel is a LW and he is seeing little sign of wear.

I know LW use a very hard steel which some rifle makers don't like using as it's much harder to cut. I suspect PacNor use a relatively soft steel. My guess is that this has a lot to do with the speed at which my throat is eroding.
 
Interesting. I wonder if any of the long range target shooters would consider barrel wear due to differing metallurgy as a factor when purchasing, given that barrels are consumables and the ultimate goal is accuracy. For a dual purpose rifle it would seem to be a factor worth considering. It would be a difficult factor to compare, but you would think perhaps those who had been at the full on target/competition game a long time may have an inkling as to which manufacturers barrels held up longer, at least assuming they had stuck with the same chambering/bullet/powder combo.
 
I have always chased both velocity and accuracy. Accuracy is first priority, but I always go for the fastest accurate node. My primary reason is minimising wind drift.

However, I don't like the throat erosion that goes with it and will be backing off a bit, changing away from the double base powders and coming down a bit on the pressure. I will loose a bit to the wind but if it doubles my barrel life I will put up with that.

Almost everyone what's that top velocity bracket that you see posted online.
However it's either not always achievable or it comes at a cost.
2700fps doesn't sound half as good as 2950:cool:
However if one's trying to push a 140grn bullet at 2900 you either need a very long barrel or a creedmoor size case or bigger.
You can't expect 6.5- 284 velocity from a little 47 Lap without some sacrifice.
I'm not in any way having a dig at you Nigel as I know you're an experienced reloader.

Just more making the point to others that some of the high velocity loads you see people quote online aren't all they are cracked up to be.
I was definitely guilty of chasing that dream velocity and that tiny group I had see online when I started.
 
Interesting. I wonder if any of the long range target shooters would consider barrel wear due to differing metallurgy as a factor when purchasing, given that barrels are consumables and the ultimate goal is accuracy. For a dual purpose rifle it would seem to be a factor worth considering. It would be a difficult factor to compare, but you would think perhaps those who had been at the full on target/competition game a long time may have an inkling as to which manufacturers barrels held up longer, at least assuming they had stuck with the same chambering/bullet/powder combo.

I'm hoping someone might join tis thread who has experience of exactly that. The most popular barrel amongst the target boys in Europe seems to be LW and in the US is Bartlein. I wonder if they choose them for the steel they use as well as their consistency of manufacture?
 
I bought a LW barrel simply because it was available in the length and twist I wanted at the time. It shoots no better than any of my factory Tikka Rifles. I regularly shoot LR too.

I wouldn't worry about a drop from "0.4s" to half moa as there could be other reasons for that slight drop-off other than throat erosion on its own but 150 thou in under 1000 rounds does seem like a fair amount of erosion.

I have a barrel with 35 thou eroded off the lands but it still shoots like it did when new and has had a few hundred more rounds than yours through it. I only ever use single base powders though. I'd be more concerned with rifling damage at the crown or significantly more than the erosion you mention but you have a point. If you shoot vld type bullets and need to get closer to the lands but can't load out any further then your groups will likely suffer. If not, and the barrel is in good order other than the lands being chased, well you ought to be able to load closer and regain tighter precision.

Velocity may be a consideration along with precision for LR shooting (the obvious reduction in wind drift) but none of my best accuracy loads are the highest velocity ones and I never, ever use double base but do ok at distance (if by sub moa groups from factory rifles and re barrelled factory rifles is the yardstick at LR of 600 yds to 1000). I'd be happy with 4K rounds from my 6.5 before I had to worry about a rebarrel due to accuracy drop-off for LR work. For hunting, I'd be disappointed at a 4K rebarrel from a 6.5 unless shooting high pressure loads. If yours holds 0.5 or better it's probably not yet time to worry about a rebarrel unless you shoot comp but to preserve barrel life a switch to single base or lower pressure loads might be in order..
 
My guess is that the wear in a barrel is mainly due to fire cracking which in turn is mainly a result of thermal shock. One can calculate which materials will last longer. I used to do that when designing/blending high tech ceramics for special purposes. As far as I remember: Higher Youngs modulus is negativ, higher tensile strength is positiv, higher thermal conductivity is positiv. I presume the Youngs modulus will be very similar between stainless steel blends. Tensile strength might be largest difference followed by thermal conductivity resulting from a different material blend. So if LW steel is more difficult to machine, it might be due to higher tensile strength which in turn could be more resistant to fire cracking compared to the usual 416.
edi
 
I believe that LW use a special stainless which they have called LW50 which is meant to be harder wearing than 416. It's more like a 17-4PH Martensitic steel and requires (according to my gunsmith) a harder grade of tool steel to cut the chambers if using it. I'm not sure that hardness on its own is a measure of resistance to thermal erosion as some 330 steels do quite well there. However, my own experience with my LW barrel is that there's been very little throat erosion measured over the last 1000 rounds.
 
We're making some progress here.

Heat treatment and Rockwell harness has also got to have some effect. I'm sure this changes considerably across the barrel makers.

Has anyone got any idea how the steel used/Rockwell hardness differed between Bartlein, PacNor and LW?
 
So after a bit more digging I have found that LW use X20Cr13 steel, specification here:


PacNor say they use 416R and so do Bartlein and most other US barrel makers - the equivalent spec for 416R is here:


It appears that the LW steel is slightly stronger and slightly harder than most other barrel makers. I realise that's only half the story as each maker will have his own heat treatment methodology which will affect the hardness of their finished barrels, but it's interesting that LW start with a tougher steel and may help explain why those using similar loads to me in 6.5x47 are seeing longer barrel life.
 
You guys realy like "... getting into the weeds" as we say. Load. Shoot. Repeat. Barrels wear but as the first post indicated, do not become useless: the groups were still half MOA.** ~Muir

(**So much for argument to set the bullet a precise distance to the lands!)
 
There are many more things going on and interacting, which are the subject of intense research by the military.

See http://2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n-wpe...tanding-and-predicting-gun-barrel-erosion.pdf and start at page 3.

Now, in the commercial world of rifle barrel manufacturing, lets imagine a scenario:

Both manufacturers know how to make a good barrel, and the difference that the quality and composition of the steel makes to their life.

By the way, no stainless steel is as good as the proper stuff that can go rusty if not cared for. But is attractive to those who prefer a low maintenance regime. It still can rust though. Good for other bits of a rifle, but a none-SS barrel would always be my first choice.

Manufacturer A maybe chooses to use the most durable exotic gun steel, if they can source it reliably, at added expense, and tooling wear. Their USP being that, whilst expensive they should last longer. Hoping that these gain a good reputation from those to whom this matters, e.g. the ones who wear out a barrel in a year or less, even keep a spare one pre-fitted, and the tools to screw it on themselves when they detect that the first is going off just a touch. They are not set up for high volume manufacture.

Manufacturer B chooses to mass-manufacture barrels that are just as accurate, from a perhaps slightly less durable but more economical steel, that is maybe easier to machine, in ready supply. Knowing that the vast majority of the final customers will never need, have any way of comparing, nor appreciate the possible benefits. They also want to mass-manufacture and sell to rifle manufacturers competitively (lowest bid wins).

Which also allows them to get the best barrel steel that they can afford, with volume purchasing. It might actually be better, even the best.

Here's an example:





Different business plans.

As for the powder manufacturers, they probably know how their compositions affect wear, but AFAIK none of them make any claims in this regard. Their drive is to offer marketing advantages such as higher velocity, better uniformity over large temperature variations, less copper fouling due to additives that somehow chemically remove it (and what else ?). Whilst re-formulating for REACH compliance. And coming up with marketing names such as "Xtreme", or just giving them silly names instead of plain numbers. Which I suspect may not be conducive to barrel wear considerations.

Also study Smokeless powder - Wikipedia

Never seen a problem with double base ball powders such as BLC2 or Vectan SP7, and have used them for several thousand rounds, at recommended loads in supposedly boring calibres. Nor let the barrel get toasty hot.

Then there is the choice of calibre. A large case behind a small bullet (over-bore) running at the top end of pressures, inevitably funnels that blast into the throat more savagely than the boring old well-balanced designs operating at lower pressure. Some extreme ones are notorious "barrel burners".

If you choose one of these, knowingly, then factor in your re-barrelling costs, as they become a consumable, like tyres and brake pads on a vehicle. And could even be on parity with the costs of everything else per shot.

I think that, if shooting long range just for fun, and personal satisfaction, something as mundane as a boring economical durable .308 is still a viable choice, even if it tests your skills more than the latest whizz-bang. Which is surely the satisfaction.

But if you want to do this competitively, and aspire to reach the highest levels, you need to pay for the "best" stuff and keep up with the trends, which are sometimes outliers, right on the margin of what works, with no consideration of real-world durability. It becomes a very expensive game. Even then the best kit is no substitute for skill.
 
You guys realy like "... getting into the weeds" as we say. Load. Shoot. Repeat. Barrels wear but as the first post indicated, do not become useless: the groups were still half MOA.** ~Muir

(**So much for argument to set the bullet a precise distance to the lands!)

Many of "us" just can't go shooting as much as we like to... so we talk about it. Europe has always been full of tech geeks. Should have a look on German forums...
BTW your packet is on it's way.
edi
 
Nigel, when it comes to 6.5x47L and LW barrels I couldn't think of anyone with as much as experience as STL rifles in Germany. Manfred Schmitt holds his STL cup once a year in a Tunnel... Aktuelles | STL-Rifles
He seems to be very close to the company LW and uses their barrels, has all his barrels chambered by LW as he say's LW built a special machine for the purpose which is better than any universal machine.
I don't shoot in this league and could not judge. I have three LW barrelled custom builds, two are factory chambered but use them for longer range hunting only.
edi
 
You guys realy like "... getting into the weeds" as we say. Load. Shoot. Repeat. Barrels wear but as the first post indicated, do not become useless: the groups were still half MOA.** ~Muir

(**So much for argument to set the bullet a precise distance to the lands!)

Nope, we are not. ISTM that this is a discussion about long range target shooting, which is quite different from shooting deer and other species. And a popular sport here. Where a 0.5 MOA 5 shot group on a perfect target (not showing the other less-so-perfect ones) at as little as 100 m (with declared flyers) doesn't even begin. I'd dare to surmise that target shooters, in our clubs,far outweigh those who actually use a sporting rifle to cull deer.

It's different here. Those who are fortunate to have the opportunities can cull as many deer in a year as you have maybe shot in a lifetime.

Others who don't have such opportunities pay for them, perhaps only being able to afford a few outings/year. Nevertheless, despite being a small country we have an abundance of deer. Find a good operator and the chances are high. From my records I have averaged over 1 per outing. Maybe that is why it is a popular destination for hunters from other countries who appreciate the opportunities, and the quality.

We can't just buy whatever rifle we take a fancy too, and as many as we want (each one has to be justified with "good reason"), then amuse ourselves. Every one has to be justified, and it is quite reasonable to try to get the best out of what we have, even if that doesn't align with your perhaps more relaxed ideas.
 
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