What utter BS this is.

So it's okay to breed the best quality hinds in a farm and specifically rear them for venison and in turn profit, but it's not okay to do the same with the male of the species as a profit is being made on his head? Really.......?

Its not hunting, it does not interest me at all, but if I had a deer farm in the UK producing venison and the breeding stag was about to be replaced and some rich bloke said he would pay me £20,000 to shoot it for me if he could keep the head, I would hand him the rifle. As I bet most on this thread would as well if trying to make a living. I may stand behind him thinking I don't get this, but so what!

So what's the real issue with this offer then? Is it okay as long as we do it behind closed doors for fear of the outside world getting an insight to a branch of rearing deer we think could be associated with normal deer management policies? If this practice was attacked by antis, how would that effect the normal day to day management of wild deer, un-penned ones?

Do you really think that this is just a surplus stag no longer required on a venison farm?! I'll bet good money that it isn't! It has been bred behind wire for the specific purpose of being shot by a visiting [sportsman is not the term]. That is why it can be equated with the canned lions in SA.

No argument with the idea that someone has to make a living, but we are each responsible for the morality and ethics of what we do to make that living.
 
Do you really think that this is just a surplus stag no longer required on a venison farm?! I'll bet good money that it isn't! It has been bred behind wire for the specific purpose of being shot by a visiting [sportsman is not the term]. That is why it can be equated with the canned lions in SA.

No argument with the idea that someone has to make a living, but we are each responsible for the morality and ethics of what we do to make that living.

That's the point I'm trying to make though, with regards to rearing animals for profit. I don't know the first thing about canned hunting in Africa, but it sounds like very false replication of true dangerous game hunting. But deer when raised, whether passed their best or not are done so for venison. This stag produces venison and a head as well worth tens of thousands of dollars. The hinds in parks are culled and harvested, just like this stag will be. It's almost of no consequence whether its past its best or not, as hinds are also culled at their prime to give the best return on their yield.

We set up deer on a pedestal and hold them in some kind of reverence, which I feel is where a lot of the emotion in this thread arises from. They are no more a game animal than a rabbit or pheasant. They are a source of food. They also happen to be a quarry species for true hunting, so in effect fulfil two roles.

I find it more immoral to raise an animal like this and then release it to the wild in the hope someone gets a shot at it on the pretext they are hunting a wild trophy beast, than actually being honest and up front and saying what it is, and that's an animal in a pen needing culled for big money.

As I said, it's not hunting, it's not for me and in fact find it a bit sad that the person driven to pay this money has no inherent grasp on what a true wild hunt is probably. They will never experience all that proper deer stalking has to offer because if their mindset. But I honestly think we get too emotive about this sort of thing as its about as far removed from what I do with deer as can be.

I keep harping on about put and take trout fisheries. They are just as bad if being judged morally, yet its only a trout so it doesn't count?

Hugh Falkus wrote in one of his books that for him fishing can only be justified when we kill everything we catch as its food for the table. To play a fish on a line and then return it we are doing so for our own cheap thrill and gratification at the animals expense. Hence if he caught a couple of salmon and killed them he would stop fishing, no matter how good the prospects were.

If there is a risk all Fieldsports will ultimately suffer because of such practices, then we need to look deeper. Too easy to just single out one example of what may be bad practice.

I'm not in favour of or against this, just looking at it as part of the bigger picture.
 
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That's the point I'm trying to make though, with regards to rearing animals for profit. I don't know the first thing about canned hunting in Africa, but it sounds like very false replication of true dangerous game hunting. But deer when raised, whether passed their best or not are done so for venison. This stag produces venison and a head as well worth tens of thousands of dollars. The hinds in parks are culled and harvested, just like this stag will be. It's almost of no consequence whether its past its best or not, as hinds are also culled at their prime to give the best return on their yield.

We set up deer on a pedestal and hold them in some kind of reverence, which I feel is where a lot of the emotion in this thread arises from. They are no more a game animal than a rabbit or pheasant. They are a source of food. They also happen to be a quarry species for true hunting, so in effect fulfil two roles.

I find it more immoral to raise an animal like this and then release it to the wild in the hope someone gets a shot at it on the pretext they are hunting a wild trophy beast, than actually being honest and up front and saying what it is, and that's an animal in a pen needing culled for big money.

As I said, it's not hunting, it's not for me and in fact find it a bit sad that the person driven to pay this money has no inherent grasp on what a true wild hunt is probably. They will never experience all that proper deer stalking has to offer because if their mindset. But I honestly think we get too emotive about this sort of thing as its about as far removed from what I do with deer as can be.

I keep harping on about put and take trout fisheries. They are just as bad if being judged morally, yet its only a trout so it doesn't count?

Hugh Falkus wrote in one of his books that for him fishing can only be justified when we kill everything we catch as its food for the table. To play a fish on a line and then return it we are doing so for our own cheap thrill and gratification at the animals expense. Hence if he caught a couple of salmon and killed them he would stop fishing, no matter how good the prospects were.

If there is a risk all Fieldsports will ultimately suffer because of such practices, then we need to look deeper. Too easy to just single out one example of what may be bad practice.

I'm not in favour of or against this, just looking at it as part of the bigger picture.

Great post, my thoughts exactly.

There are posts on SD nearly every week that give the anti's more ammunition than any advert from NZ
 
They are no more a game animal than a rabbit or pheasant. They are a source of food. They also happen to be a quarry species for true hunting, so in effect fulfil two roles.

I find it more immoral to raise an animal like this and then release it to the wild in the hope someone gets a shot at it on the pretext they are hunting a wild trophy beast, than actually being honest and up front and saying what it is


Jammy I like most of what you wrote and you have it right except for the highlighted line of yours above imo.

They (the deer) are far more a game animal than a rabbit or pheasant.....what else stirs the blood more out of the three I ask? How can one equate a rabbit with a royal?

When the hunter sights the great stag as he trots across the hill carrying his massive set of antlers that reflect the sun as he swings his head the hunter (this bloke does) will even get a shiver or two and often forget all of those years of self training and perhaps 'blow the game' only to rue what could have been...does a missed duck bring this on? Does a rabbit getting to the briars make you feel sick to the guts? No of course not but a missed opportunity on any deer will have the hunter reflecting for days,weeks,months....years even,well I do after seeing some of the big boy`s escape.

Emphatically NO!

The deer are so far ahead in terms of game in your country and mine that there is no comparison at all with what I equate to "training aids" and yes they are training aids seeing as one grows from boyhood on the rabbits and fowl to the pinnacle of a mighty Royal on the wall...err thats a free and wild Royal of course.
 
Jammy I like most of what you wrote and you have it right except for the highlighted line of yours above imo.

They (the deer) are far more a game animal than a rabbit or pheasant.....what else stirs the blood more out of the three I ask? How can one equate a rabbit with a royal?

When the hunter sights the great stag as he trots across the hill carrying his massive set of antlers that reflect the sun as he swings his head the hunter (this bloke does) will even get a shiver or two and often forget all of those years of self training and perhaps 'blow the game' only to rue what could have been...does a missed duck bring this on? Does a rabbit getting to the briars make you feel sick to the guts? No of course not but a missed opportunity on any deer will have the hunter reflecting for days,weeks,months....years even,well I do after seeing some of the big boy`s escape.

Emphatically NO!

The deer are so far ahead in terms of game in your country and mine that there is no comparison at all with what I equate to "training aids" and yes they are training aids seeing as one grows from boyhood on the rabbits and fowl to the pinnacle of a mighty Royal on the wall...err thats a free and wild Royal of course.

Hi John

But its us who have placed the deer in this exalted position. If you ever get the chance to hunt blue hares with a golden eagle, which I have done through a close friend, you will see just what a sporting quarry it is, and how well matched it is to its pursuer.

i agree the stalking of deer can get the heart going like no other form of shooting but some guys will pick a driven pheasant day before stalking deer. Its funny because just about every (probably every one in fact) stalker I know also shoots game with a shotgun, but I know quite a lot of guys who shoot game but don't stalk deer yet have every opportunity to do so.

As I said earlier, I'm not in favour of this, nor against it. It's certainly not something I would do....
 
Thats all good and we all have our own opinions but when we walk into a blokes trophy room and there is a cock pheasant in all his glory mounted on one wall and a royal stag on the other,well you must admit the bird wont draw a second glance...even the bird hunters will stand agape! One is truly a 'hunt pinnacle' to those that further on from the other fur `n feather.

If the hunter can spin a yarn he will also have his guests spell bound at the story of the stalk... imo once again.....who really wants to hear of the pheasant folding to the shot?
 
Thats all good and we all have our own opinions but when we walk into a blokes trophy room and there is a cock pheasant in all his glory mounted on one wall and a royal stag on the other,well you must admit the bird wont draw a second glance...even the bird hunters will stand agape! One is truly a 'hunt pinnacle' to those that further on from the other fur `n feather.

If the hunter can spin a yarn he will also have his guests spell bound at the story of the stalk... imo once again.....who really wants to hear of the pheasant folding to the shot?

Ill tell you what, there has been some examples of taxidermy (used loosely) shown on here that would draw more looks and gasps than any huge stags head!!! Lol
 
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