Aggro on permission

[caz518]

Guys,

After a sh*t day at work went out to one of my permissions this evening (the only one that has shootable deer) in search of a buck and if not some Bunny's. I arrived at the farm and had a look around the main field where i have seen Deer previously and spot a 4 point Roe buck amongst the long grass. Happy days...however there are two members of the public in one of the adjoining fields standing looking at the farmers cows so i decided i'd leave the rifle in the car for a while until they walked off (to save any hassle) then id come back for the Buck.
So i was walking back to the car to get the rifle and up pulls a guy who also has permission to shooot on the farm and has done for a while from what i have been told........I ran into this guy once before when i was having a look round one of the fields, he came over and questioned me regarding if i had permission etc, stating he had been shooting there many years... and what i was shooting....to which i replied mainly vermin .he was a bit arsy and it was clear he wasnt too happy about me shooting there...he left the convo saying "well i will speak to the farmer about this in the morning!"......anway i spoke to the farmer the next day explained i ran into his friend who shoots their and all was fine and he told the guy that i was allowed to be there...

Back to tonight......

The guy gets out his car and comes over , says hi etc..."oh what are you looking for?", i say just having a look round but there is a buck over there which he has already seen.."so were you planning on shooting it then?" he says...to which i replied erm no not at the moment... he the goes on to state that he has been managing and nurturing the deer on the farm for many years..(well there are only really two fields that the deer can get into due to the cattle , and im guessing there is not much of a population to "manage" in these two fields.. So i asked him what he had been doing to nurture them...to which he said shooting the young ones.. and he said has used a something? triangle management program...... Ok fair enough .... he then goes on to ask me if i am a member of the BDS? to which i said ..why do i need to be to shoot or know about deer?! explained i had my dsc l1 when he asked if i understood about the ecology of deer, now i do not claim to know a lot about Deer as i am new to this game and have a lot to learn but this guy was coming out with some crap to try and act like he knew it all..he was trying everything in the book to try and find a reason why i should not be shooting the deer there..as though he owned the bloody farm! He asked if the land was cleared for me (which it is ) , asked if i had specific permission to shoot deer from the farmer (which i do) but at this point i felt my self getting a bit pi$$ed off out so i suggested he take up his issues with the farmer regarding what permission i have...i did not want to discuss any more of my business with this guy..He then said he would prefer if i didnt shoot any more bucks untill after the rut and maybe he would let me come back and shoot the does in the winter..(hang on a second it is not his place to tell me what to do or when to do it!!! so i bit my tongue again and popped off to look for some bunny's ,again he left saying " ill speak to the farmer in the morning"

So i left that field and parked up by the farmers house to look for some bunnys , thought id leave the buck as would have been too much hassle with this guy around.

Bumped into the farmers wife and asked if the farmer was in , she said yes and preceeded to wake him up from his kip on the sofa...not the best idea but she did it before i could say leave him be. He came to the door was happy to see me considering he had just been woken up , i explained what had just happened and he said the guy can be a bit possessive and not to worry he will have a word with him..his wife also said well the deer here are wild and belonged to no one so i was free to shoot them ..anyway seems like they didnt think to much of the situation and we happy with what i was doing. I just wanted to get there an explain my side before the guy turned up tomorrow and said goodness know what about me.

Now its about 40 mins after the incident and i shoot a bunny in one of the fields (looked into the original field and saw a buck chasing a doe but had the rimmy anyway), as im walking back to the car this guy drives down one of the roads alongside the field and pulls up, obviously to look at what i had just shot!..pulls over and has a good look at me ... , he had kept driving around to make sure i had not shot anything else...i looked towards his car , shook my head and carried on walking. By this time i had enough and thought id call it a day.

Now my main worry is that this guy is a bit sly and crafty after how he was carrying on and may try some tricks in the future to get me off there although at times he tried to come accross as being friendly with me. I did also ask him if he had an issue to come out with it rather than beat around the bush talking rubbish, but he didnt really say much in the end other than he will speak to the farmer. Now im not used to taking rubbish from people or being spoken to like an idiot but I guess sometimes we have to just bite our tongues eh.

whats the best way to play this chaps any ideas? I know the farmer is fine with me so thats not a major worry unless the guy tries to change his view, Do i just shoot what i want as i have permission to do so? The last thing i need is some nob cooking a up a story to get me off the permission or worse...? Do i consider what he is saying? Do i log this situation with feo or police incase he tries any tricks in future to cover my back? any advise will be appreciated!

Rant over guys..had to get that off my chest...the poor Mrs got her ear bent as well when i got in

 

[jamross65]

Have you considered the possibility that if this bloke does something wrong you will be under as much suspicion as him? I cannot see how it is worth the hassle for shooting predominately vermin over what you describe as 2 fields. I think if I were you, I would be having a word in the farmers ear about the issues in having more than one gun on the place who clearly do not get along or converse regarding the intention of going there with rifles!!! I think there is a disaster waiting to happen...

 

[Wolverine]

I would've shot the buck,if youve got permission and the farmers happy for you to shoot deer,perhaps the other guy hasn't been shooting enough????
I would do as suggested and try and suss out if you can get sole shooting rights otherwise it could be a disaster waiting to happen,he shoots something and blames you,ie wounds a doe out of season or something else backhanded
It depends how good a bit of ground it is whether it's worth the hassle or not
Saying that if it was me(plenty of ground)I would walk away from it because the other guy was there first and probably not worth the hassle

 

[SussexFallow]

I would have shot the buck while he was watching. Then told him to FECK OFF . Then took the farmer the venison the next day and let him make a decision. You or the wanabe deer manager.

Atb Steve

 

[sikamalc]

First of all make sure you have the permission to cull the deer and shoot on the land in writing from the farmer with his signature on it. when and if your little friend approaches you again you can produce this and wave it under his nose. And if his attitude does not change you can tell him to go forth and multiply!!

Secondly if you are stalking and have a buck in view and its your right, then I would continue to stalk the deer and shoot it. You are doing nothing wrong.

Thirdly I would certainly challenge his comment about managing deer on two fields he sounds to me as though he is another arm chair stalker. Shooting all the young deer is not a management policy to follow and fourthly you do not need to belong to BDS, BASC or any other organisation to stalk deer, it is not a requirement of law, it is a matter of personal choice.

Get the permission in writing and he cant touch you

 

[6pointer]

I would get him to right down his cull plan for the deer and make sure you are included in this plan. But i cannot see me walking past a buck because some tosser thinks he owns the place. I would get on with the job in hand eg vermin control help the landowner as much as you can and the next time he come over to speek to you tell him politely to f off

 

[Gazza]

Always a difficult situation. If correct in what he says this guy has had the sole shooting permission for some time and then along comes you. If you were the other guy you would not be best pleased with the situation either. To me if a landowner gives you or for that matter the other guy the shooting rights he can no longer give permission to somebody else. Only the person who has the shooting rights can do so.
Beginning of this year I had a phone call from a farmer re a major fox problem. He gave me permission to shoot on three good areas of ground. The permission was for vermin and deer. As per my normal practice I had him sign an agreement giving me sole permission and access. I then find out that at least one other guy shoots the ground but had just not been on top of the fox problem. Even although I now had the shooting rights and more legal right than anybody else through a written contract I walked away from it. Reason - Too easy for somebody else to do something and blame you or to say that they saw you doing something illegal.
I think your situation is heading for disaster.

 

[firsttimer]

Whilst the other guy is being arsy, I can understand his feelings and has been said, his nose is probably out of joint because someone else is now on 'his ground' having shot it for years- I had the same experience as Gazza and walked away from 350 acres as the farmer after signing a sole permission to me allowed 2 others to shoot. He contact me afterwards and I said that it was not safe to allow 3 different parties to shoot on his ground as we all did not know who was out. In addition, I had 2 wasted trips (45 mins from home) when arrived to find out the ground had been shot the night before (mainly foxes).

As a compromise caz, could you not speak to the guy and see if you can come to an arrangement where you agree with each other and take turns to shoot on alternate weeks or as a syndicate operates you tell each other when you are going out

 

[User00003]

I personally detest the notion of sharing stalking grounds with other people, and unless it's a concerted effort to manage a deer population 'properly' then it will just lead to the wrong kind of behaviour.. that being jealousy, possesiveness, anger, and maybe even dangerous situations arising if two people are stalking the same ground at the same time, unaware of each others presence.

I'd consider talking to the farmer about only having one guy with permission to shoot over the land, and tell him the reasons, and to let him decide who that should be. The alternative is to have one person in charge of deer and one in charge of 'other' vermin (fox, rabbits, etc.).

but you don't want to have some irate guy banging on your door at 4 in the morning, becuase his precious nurtured 4 pointer is gone, and he found some blood in the grass!...

 

[caz518]

Thanks for the mixed responses guys that what i was after some different opinions...

jamross / wolverine -Yes i am aware that if this guy does something wrong i could be in the picture, the thought of that does not sit well with me. I let the farmer know everytime im out shooting anyway so he know when i am and when i am not there but guess i am still left open to possible issues.
It the only bit of ground i have that is ok to shoot Deer which makes me reluctant to just walk away, i have other vermin permissions , one with a large amount of roe but they would prefer them not to be shot

Bordersman - I did think about that i must say...but the farmer does not like venison , although he received a nice bottle last time i got a Buck there and he was happy with that . Its also difficult as the guy has know the farmer a long timeso i dont want to be too rude and give him any ammunition against me.

Malc - I have the permission in writing (including Deer, its one of those BASC permission forms) as with all my permissions. I will produce this to him when i next see him as you say , hopefully he speaks to the farmer today and is told that i am ok to shoot Deer, but guess will wait and see what has happened next time i see the farmer. He did seem a bit annoyed when he found out the farmer had given me permission for Deer and not just vermin as he thought but he does not own or lease the shooting rights for the land!

6p / Gazza - I doubt very much this guy has a cull plan from what he was saying to me...although im sure he would say otherwise. I dont think the guy has had sole permission / shooting rights, but i will take what you say on board and think it through. As you say its too easy for someone else to put blame on me and cause me trouble i dont need...

 

[caz518]

Firstimer - Yes i can understand the guys feeling and im sure i would feel the same, I have been reasonable and polite to this guy and explained i did not want to tread on his toes etc.. but i think he really needs to take up his issue with the Farmer as it is him that has given me permission. My thoughts are if he was doing a good job on the vermin (not just Deer) then the farmer would not have given me permission in the first place. I dont want to stir up trouble , an i agree with your view on speaking to the guy and trying to arrange something as this may be the best and safest option.

PKL - Thanks for your response, talking to the farmer may well be a good idea, however i dont want to keep on at him about it or he is going to get fed up with the situation i guess, he doesnt seem too fussed and is happy for me to shoot what i want. I will mention something again when i next see him.

Oh and if he bangs on my door at 4am...ill send the MRS down and it wont be the blood in the grass he will have to worry about

Thanks again everyone for the advice

 

[User00003]

might also be worth asking the other stalking to join you for a pint at the pub, and discuss a way for you both to enjoy the ground going forwards, maybe discuss sharing 'deer management plans' and put something in place you are both happy with.

 

[mudman]

I think it boils down to the fact that it is you only piece of ground for deer, makes it tricky as otherwise my advise would have been to walk away, but its a difficult decision to make if you have nowhere else to walk to.

Only alternative is to have a proper meeting with the guy to discuss the the way ahead, maybe come up with a cull plan/ agreed numbers to take and decide to split it (not neccessarily evenly). Otherwise it could end up as a free for all and every deer getting shot with the thought in mind 'that if I don't shoot it, he will', which will be no good to either yourselves or the deer.

 

[RED-DOT]

Two fields isn't worth arguing over and the other guy was there first.. I wouldn't invite him for a pint as alcohol and shooting don't mix. We had a neighbouring estate that had a real A**hole part time 'keeper on it and he used to sit and glass our after dark activities. Live and let live but sometimes it is better to move on.

 

[User00003]

We had a neighbouring estate that had a real A**hole part time 'keeper on it and he used to sit and glass our after dark activities..

So he was a different type of 'stalker' then! I take it you're not referring to activities after you got home

 

[RED-DOT]

I bet he did too!!

 

[caz518]

Thanks for the replies guys , maybe the best couse of action would be to try and have a proper chat with this guy to make life easier , however I won't be having a beer with him....find it hard to be in the company of people who have been rude to my face , I dislike having to put on a front .
I completely understand that he was there first and I respect that , however the farmer has given me permission , and maybe he felt that the other guy was not looking after the other aspects such as vermin control ( too busy concentrating on nurturing his deer ) .

A lot will depend on what the farmer says to him when he goes to speak to him I guess ...so I will wait and see.

However I will continue my ongoing search for new permissions , knocking those doors and posting those letters

 

[Labrat]

I think its defo time for a nice hamper or a bottle for the farmer & his wife for being so understanding, and to say sorry for any hassle he's had from the "mate", just to remind them how much you appreciate them!

 

[Si]

All too often when you approach a farmer to ask for shooting you'll here the immortal words "well there is already someone shooting on here, but he hasn't been for ages"
Not wanting to tread on anyone's toes you leave your number and walk away.... more than likely you'll never hear anymore about it.
I had this a few months ago at a chicken farm, I asked if I could shoot foxes and the farmer said he would need to speak to the chap who already has permission but hasn't been since before Xmas, to check if he still want's the rights.

Guess who's car was parked in the gateway the following evening?

 

[User00003]

tell the farmer you've been seeing the other guy sneaking around with his wife..job done