Carcase Quality

Not really. As I say I’ve assessed practical skills for years. There are two factors at work. Firstly there will be a minimum criteria to pass. This should be written so all are assessed the same however inevitably this is open to interpretation by the assessor. Things like,” the candidate must show competency in …”
Assessing competency in practical skills on a one off assessment is completely flawed. There is so much educational evidence to support this. Practical skills need to be assessed on multiple times in different scenarios to be robust and valid and ideally by more than one assessor.
The second is the ability of the AW. Human nature is such that when faced with a weak candidate they will give them the benefit of the doubt, again this can be rectified by observing the action multiple times by multiple assessors, if weak every time it’s easier to fail. Do DMQ post their pass rates? I am struggling to find them. Without a failure rate then it’s not a valid assessment.
For DMQ to say that the new system works laughs in the face of all educational theory and assessment evidence. For DMQ to say a one visit assessment is as valid as a three visit portfolio assessment is just a joke and shows arrogance.
If DMQ wanted this to be a valid assessment then they would ask for multiple visits and at least two AW assessments so as to remove bias. The AW would also be revalidated regularly. All of this would mean that no one would volunteer as an AW and the cost to obtain DMQ would go up as many would be paying high AW fees to get the assessment done.
From a DMQ point of view less would put forward to get level 2 so less revenue coming in.

So I ask again as I acknowledged the old DMQ 2 was not perfect. Do you acknowledge that as it stands DMQ have lowered the standards by which they assess candidates?

BE

This is a conversation probably better had over a pint in a pub, as we are diverting away from the original subject matter.

However to answer your question, personally I don’t acknowledge that standards have been lowered. Then again I speak as someone who has witnessed under both the old and new schemes, and so I have seen from a practical perspective how the new scheme works. But I have no reason to lie, and can only speak as I find. I also know there are current AW’s who will disagree with me, which is fine too. If any AW’s feel strongly enough about it, it is easy these days to retire from being an AW. I’m not aware of many who have, but the number of AW’s I personally know can be counted on the fingers of both hands, so hardly representative either.

The old DSC2 scheme did not teach competence. Nor was it designed to. It was there to assess competence, through observation and questioning. In this it did a fair job, but was far from perfect.

Just as with the old scheme, Candidates under the new scheme should only be witnessed once they have reached the required standard. They still require training to become competent, and indeed this is emphasised in the briefing notes to both the Candidates themselves and AW’s. But Witnessed stalks are now just that - witnessed. If the Candidate isn’t observed reaching the required standard, the PC cannot be signed off. I tell every Candidate that I am there as an AW simply to observe - not to train, not to coach, and not to advise. That is way different from the old scheme and, to my mind, makes the Witnessed stalk far more objective.

One positive I do see from the new scheme is that there is now less reliance on the individual capabilities of the AW and more rigorous questioning of the Candidate by the Assessor. The AW is now there just to witness, and the Assessor to assess - but assess both the candidate and the AW, as the Assessor also now contacts the AW and subjects them to far more questioning than under the old scheme. I accept that many AW’s might not like this, as it puts them under direct scrutiny, but I believe it should help make the performance of AW’s far more consistent and reliable.

Let’s go back to the definition of DSC2:

“DSC2 is a practical based qualification which enables candidates to demonstrate their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically.”

Answer me a question. Why does it require three deer to do that? Why not 10, or 6 (one of each UK deer species, as some here propose), or 100? What is it about three that makes it the magic number, other than the fact that three was the number that DSC2 started with?

If I think of other courses, I recently took both my food hygiene course and my EFAW+F course, and I wasn’t required to take the temperature of the chiller three times, to wash equipment three times, to dress a wound three times, or to perform CPR three times. Yet I passed both qualifications. Why was showing competence just the once good enough for those courses, but not for DSC2?

Or how about the courses that you teach? Do you require students to sit the exam three times, just to make sure they have taken everything in and can demonstrate competence effectively? Or instead, do you perhaps teach, observe, assess and then pass or fail accordingly? What makes DSC2 so different?

If we consider the objective again, i.e. “legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically”, we are hardly talking rocket science or flying a jet aircraft. Whether the Candidate is seen meeting the standard once, thrice, or a dozen times should be immaterial. If you think otherwise, then we can journey down the rabbit hole of having Candidates demonstrate competence in every eventuality they might encounter during their stalking lifetimes. I’ve read on here too many times about how DSC2 should cover everything from shooting peri-urban muntjac sown South, to reds on the Hill, to sika in the forest. The experiences are completely different, so surely the required “competence” should be different to? But honestly, what would be the point, when all we are asking Candidates to demonstrate is that they can legally, safely and humanely cull deer and deal with carcasses hygienically? Why overly complicate what is actually a pretty straightforward process?

The comments you make about AW’s and Assessors are justified as much under the old scheme as the new. I quite agree that, in the ideal world, AW’s would be re-assessed every few years to ensure they are still competent and up-to-date with the changes, but personally I doubt that will happen. It would be administratively onerous, undoubtably expensive, and likely reduce the number of AW’s willing to take part, none of which are desirable at a time when, as a stalking community, we are being encouraged to shoot more deer. That’s before we look at the impact on the cost of achieving DSC2 itself. I very much doubt the benefits would outweigh the efforts and costs involved. Remember, AW’s are volunteers, and do the job more for the love of it and a desire to put something back than for any financial recompense. Being an AW is in no way a money spinner, despite what some might suggest.

The old DSC2 was not perfect, and neither is the new DSC2. However what gets my goat is the implication that Candidates under the new scheme are somehow less competent than those who qualified under the old scheme. This is not my practical experience, and both conveniently ignores the known failings of the old scheme and denigrates those who are making every effort to demonstrate competence under the new scheme.
 
This is a conversation probably better had over a pint in a pub, as we are diverting away from the original subject matter.

However to answer your question, personally I don’t acknowledge that standards have been lowered. Then again I speak as someone who has witnessed under both the old and new schemes, and so I have seen from a practical perspective how the new scheme works. But I have no reason to lie, and can only speak as I find. I also know there are current AW’s who will disagree with me, which is fine too. If any AW’s feel strongly enough about it, it is easy these days to retire from being an AW. I’m not aware of many who have, but the number of AW’s I personally know can be counted on the fingers of both hands, so hardly representative either.

The old DSC2 scheme did not teach competence. Nor was it designed to. It was there to assess competence, through observation and questioning. In this it did a fair job, but was far from perfect.

Just as with the old scheme, Candidates under the new scheme should only be witnessed once they have reached the required standard. They still require training to become competent, and indeed this is emphasised in the briefing notes to both the Candidates themselves and AW’s. But Witnessed stalks are now just that - witnessed. If the Candidate isn’t observed reaching the required standard, the PC cannot be signed off. I tell every Candidate that I am there as an AW simply to observe - not to train, not to coach, and not to advise. That is way different from the old scheme and, to my mind, makes the Witnessed stalk far more objective.

One positive I do see from the new scheme is that there is now less reliance on the individual capabilities of the AW and more rigorous questioning of the Candidate by the Assessor. The AW is now there just to witness, and the Assessor to assess - but assess both the candidate and the AW, as the Assessor also now contacts the AW and subjects them to far more questioning than under the old scheme. I accept that many AW’s might not like this, as it puts them under direct scrutiny, but I believe it should help make the performance of AW’s far more consistent and reliable.

Let’s go back to the definition of DSC2:

“DSC2 is a practical based qualification which enables candidates to demonstrate their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically.”

Answer me a question. Why does it require three deer to do that? Why not 10, or 6 (one of each UK deer species, as some here propose), or 100? What is it about three that makes it the magic number, other than the fact that three was the number that DSC2 started with?

If I think of other courses, I recently took both my food hygiene course and my EFAW+F course, and I wasn’t required to take the temperature of the chiller three times, to wash equipment three times, to dress a wound three times, or to perform CPR three times. Yet I passed both qualifications. Why was showing competence just the once good enough for those courses, but not for DSC2?

Or how about the courses that you teach? Do you require students to sit the exam three times, just to make sure they have taken everything in and can demonstrate competence effectively? Or instead, do you perhaps teach, observe, assess and then pass or fail accordingly? What makes DSC2 so different?

If we consider the objective again, i.e. “legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically”, we are hardly talking rocket science or flying a jet aircraft. Whether the Candidate is seen meeting the standard once, thrice, or a dozen times should be immaterial. If you think otherwise, then we can journey down the rabbit hole of having Candidates demonstrate competence in every eventuality they might encounter during their stalking lifetimes. I’ve read on here too many times about how DSC2 should cover everything from shooting peri-urban muntjac sown South, to reds on the Hill, to sika in the forest. The experiences are completely different, so surely the required “competence” should be different to? But honestly, what would be the point, when all we are asking Candidates to demonstrate is that they can legally, safely and humanely cull deer and deal with carcasses hygienically? Why overly complicate what is actually a pretty straightforward process?

The comments you make about AW’s and Assessors are justified as much under the old scheme as the new. I quite agree that, in the ideal world, AW’s would be re-assessed every few years to ensure they are still competent and up-to-date with the changes, but personally I doubt that will happen. It would be administratively onerous, undoubtably expensive, and likely reduce the number of AW’s willing to take part, none of which are desirable at a time when, as a stalking community, we are being encouraged to shoot more deer. That’s before we look at the impact on the cost of achieving DSC2 itself. I very much doubt the benefits would outweigh the efforts and costs involved. Remember, AW’s are volunteers, and do the job more for the love of it and a desire to put something back than for any financial recompense. Being an AW is in no way a money spinner, despite what some might suggest.

The old DSC2 was not perfect, and neither is the new DSC2. However what gets my goat is the implication that Candidates under the new scheme are somehow less competent than those who qualified under the old scheme. This is not my practical experience, and both conveniently ignores the known failings of the old scheme and denigrates those who are making every effort to demonstrate competence under the new scheme.
Interesting perspective. As you say there are AWs who disagree with your point of view.
What concerns me in what you say is that the answer to AWs being concerned there is a reduction in standards is to ask them to leave rather than look into their concerns.
As you say one to talk over a pint.

Happy new year.

BE
 
Interesting perspective. As you say there are AWs who disagree with your point of view.
What concerns me in what you say is that the answer to AWs being concerned there is a reduction in standards is to ask them to leave rather than look into their concerns.
As you say one to talk over a pint.

Happy new year.

BE

To be clear, no-one is asking AW’s to leave. The choice to stay or leave is entirely theirs.

Also any AW can raise concerns directly with DMQ and/or the relevant Assessor, whether about the DSCn process itself or about a specific ICR. I’ve done this myself.

Life would be very boring if everyone agreed on everything, and lively discussion and debate is what makes this site so enjoyable.

Enjoy the New Year celebrations, and Best Wishes for a peaceful and prosperous 2023.
 
But what about carcasses not put into GD?

Who sets the standards for reassessment? Clearly we cannot expect the GD to do that. If you did they will drop their rates as more time will be taken up with admin and having to employ carcass checkers as well as processors.

The responsibility of delivering clean well checked carcasses has to be with the stalker. We cannot shirk our responsibility and say it’s up to someone else to tell us.

Having a formal revalidation to maintain your trained hunter number makes sense and supports your view if continual assessment.

As with anything there are some slapdash individuals who try to get away with the minimum. Delivering shoddily gralloched deer which have been dragged through cow **** is not acceptable and you should not have to be told by a GD that is the case.

BE
In theory everything you say is correct .
In practice it’s going to turn into an another hurdle for anyone who wants to take up stalking.
That plus a goldmine for the examining body.
The dealers are already regulated, and there’s a lot fewer of them, it’s just going to be easier to start there.
 
Had a chat with an employee of one of the big Game Dealers yesterday and he says that the standard quality has gone up considerably in the last 20 years that he's worked for them. Whether that means that those of us who shoot quite a few are shooting a lot more which are all top quality and therefore make up a greater average or that the average hunter these days produces a better carcass than the average hunter of 20 years ago I don't know? I hope it's the latter!
 
This topic has a myriad of 'loopholes':
  • For a start 'Carcase quality' is not defined in the FSA Wild Game Guidance.
  • Direct supply 'Primary Producers' don't have to be Food Business Registered or even trained. They are exempt 'General Hygiene Provisions': Food Hygiene Regulations (852/2004) and they are exempt both 'TRAINING OF HUNTERS IN HEALTH AND HYGIENE' and 'HANDLING OF LARGE WILD GAME': Regulation (EC) No 853/2004. However, these hunters must comply with 'General Food Safety Law': Regulation (EC) No 178/2002. So, whilst potentially incompetent through exemption from training and equipment, hunters are liable for offences created by the Food Safety Act 1990.
  • Whilst liable for ensuring their carcasses are fit for human consumption, hunters self regulate.
  • 'Trained Hunters' whilst technically registered with an awarding body (DMQ) are not 2nd party regulated once qualified.
Perhaps ACPO could be charged with administering a national Carcass Handling Licence for all game conditioned FAC, with FEO to inspect for food safety? Just kidding.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!
 
Including permissions?
yep i lost a permission due to taking a chap out as a favour for good friend end of the season i went to pay my dues only to be told i didn’t get it, the ground went to a chap who paid 3 times as much as I, it was the guy I took out as a favour, he was nothing to do with DI
Anyhow got a call from the landowners wife, 18 months later could I pop over, yes of course thinking it was for mole or squirrel trapping
turned out the guy over the past season had left three wounded deer in the field as he couldn’t be bothered to look for them
Any how I got the permission back for 3 years with no charge and still have the permission now paid for which allows 8 fallow Does PA and going back bucks not a lot but enough for the ground

point of this is you can lose ground easily enough even by helping someone help, saying it’s the DI 100% is a bit loose, it can go anytime to anyone, If you lost ground it would or could be a unscrupulous person who used or misuses trust within the DI possibly

you can find one or two of them in any sporting discipline

overall the Di and it’s learning were a pretty good read and learning at your own pace

lot of problems surfacing these days are time restrictions, fast track training and impatience to shoot deer that on its own
leaving it all open dropping standards and bad practice

The standard of larder work by stalkers have really shot themselves in the foot, no wonder nobody wants shoddy venision or the gamedealers dropping prices and chucking out bad shooting or grallochs
serve up shite you get shite not hard to work out

two things required IMHO before L2 intermediate training for tracking, gralloching and hygiene and 3 stalks for L2 in a 3 complete stages from start to finish

when I completed my 3 stalks on my L2 b the first a cracking stalk into Roe Doe dropped on the spot 2nd stalk Roe Doe dropped to the shot and rolled down a gully with its head moving safe head shot it was already dead but it’s head was bobbing up and down on a thin branch, that shot shot marked up as unable to check the glands or head 3rd was a muntjac buck 30 yds into the stalk good h&l shot placement bloody just run despite spore and bullet seem as spot, tracked it up 35 yds in the stone dead all three done yippee

paperwork in assessor phone call - I see you had a very short stalk on the muntjac can you do another stalk yep no probs Roe bucks were now just starting after an hours stalk another half hour sliding into range smack shot the going back Roebuck sent in the paperwork. assessor rang again yep all good but you’ve done another full stalk and all gralloching lardet again. - you only needed the stalk part. got my cert in 6 weeks haven’t forget anything i learnt on the stalks apart from make sure i’ve got my teckels with me

to me it’s worth every second it’s part of getting experience the Aw’s I went with were fantastic
whether one stalk as required will get you that experience I very much doubt it
 
I don't think its to do with qualifications or a reassessment its about having pride in what you do. We can all bugger up a carcass once in a while through contamination or just bad shot placement or knife work . Its what we do next , if I'm not happy with a carcass I've produced I keep it myself to do with it what ever I can. I don't take it to the dealers to get rid off it. If I went food shopping and it looked like it was dragged through the mud I wouldn't buy it if I was a game dealer the same rule would apply.
 
yep i lost a permission due to taking a chap out as a favour for good friend end of the season i went to pay my dues only to be told i didn’t get it, the ground went to a chap who paid 3 times as much as I, it was the guy I took out as a favour, he was nothing to do with DI
Anyhow got a call from the landowners wife, 18 months later could I pop over, yes of course thinking it was for mole or squirrel trapping
turned out the guy over the past season had left three wounded deer in the field as he couldn’t be bothered to look for them
Any how I got the permission back for 3 years with no charge and still have the permission now paid for which allows 8 fallow Does PA and going back bucks not a lot but enough for the ground

point of this is you can lose ground easily enough even by helping someone help, saying it’s the DI 100% is a bit loose, it can go anytime to anyone, If you lost ground it would or could be a unscrupulous person who used or misuses trust within the DI possibly

you can find one or two of them in any sporting discipline

overall the Di and it’s learning were a pretty good read and learning at your own pace

lot of problems surfacing these days are time restrictions, fast track training and impatience to shoot deer that on its own
leaving it all open dropping standards and bad practice

The standard of larder work by stalkers have really shot themselves in the foot, no wonder nobody wants shoddy venision or the gamedealers dropping prices and chucking out bad shooting or grallochs
serve up shite you get shite not hard to work out

two things required IMHO before L2 intermediate training for tracking, gralloching and hygiene and 3 stalks for L2 in a 3 complete stages from start to finish

when I completed my 3 stalks on my L2 b the first a cracking stalk into Roe Doe dropped on the spot 2nd stalk Roe Doe dropped to the shot and rolled down a gully with its head moving safe head shot it was already dead but it’s head was bobbing up and down on a thin branch, that shot shot marked up as unable to check the glands or head 3rd was a muntjac buck 30 yds into the stalk good h&l shot placement bloody just run despite spore and bullet seem as spot, tracked it up 35 yds in the stone dead all three done yippee

paperwork in assessor phone call - I see you had a very short stalk on the muntjac can you do another stalk yep no probs Roe bucks were now just starting after an hours stalk another half hour sliding into range smack shot the going back Roebuck sent in the paperwork. assessor rang again yep all good but you’ve done another full stalk and all gralloching lardet again. - you only needed the stalk part. got my cert in 6 weeks haven’t forget anything i learnt on the stalks apart from make sure i’ve got my teckels with me

to me it’s worth every second it’s part of getting experience the Aw’s I went with were fantastic
whether one stalk as required will get you that experience I very much doubt it
Congrats Overlay, that must get an award from the SD to the longest reply to the shortest question on the SD in 2022, just in time! :)
 
Congrats Overlay, that must get an award from the SD to the longest reply to the shortest question on the SD in 2022, just in time! :)
gotta find summink to do got square eyes watching all the tv the wife watches.
what i should have done was to get in the other sitting room with the dogs put a log on the fire and have snooze but i’m being monitored, not allowed in the gunroom, not allowed in the man cave not allowed in the workshop, just lovely evening in front of the telly waiting for 24:01 hrs can’t even drink milk on antibiotics post operation for one more day

next year first AM i’m straight out with the dogs walking north swale with me spotting scope. deep joy ( not allowed to go wildfowling proper)

Happy new year. :tiphat:
 
gotta find summink to do got square eyes watching all the tv the wife watches.
what i should have done was to get in the other sitting room with the dogs put a log on the fire and have snooze but i’m being monitored, not allowed in the gunroom, not allowed in the man cave not allowed in the workshop, just lovely evening in front of the telly waiting for 24:01 hrs can’t even drink milk on antibiotics post operation for one more day

next year first AM i’m straight out with the dogs walking north swale with me spotting scope. deep joy ( not allowed to go wildfowling proper)

Happy new year. :tiphat:
Good on you! Get out to the Harty Ferry Inn or the Hog & Donkey at Marshside - a grand way to start the new year!
 
Good on you! Get out to the Harty Ferry Inn or the Hog & Donkey at Marshside - a grand way to start the new year!
harty ferry north it will be - around 13:00 hrs 😀 :thumb: gotta say it’s a wee bit damp underfoot, but all the delve ditches and river ways are full up again and not just mud
seen quite a few geese, ducks and raptors there is some out here when you just stand and watch, not so many hares but given the water in the fields their probably tucked up somewhere warm and dry on the headlands
it’s a tonic for yer lungs out here :thumb::tiphat: loving it
 
Had a chat with an employee of one of the big Game Dealers yesterday and he says that the standard quality has gone up considerably in the last 20 years that he's worked for them. Whether that means that those of us who shoot quite a few are shooting a lot more which are all top quality and therefore make up a greater average or that the average hunter these days produces a better carcass than the average hunter of 20 years ago I don't know? I hope it's the latter!
Perhaps those CPD events run by the DI actually helped 🤔
 
I’ve been watching this thread with interest…..

As a deer stalker I’ve always participated in training courses in order for me to personally learn what “standards” are expected and as an opportunity for me to reach that standard as a minimum.

BDS Advanced Stalker 1996
DMQ 1 2001
DMQ 2 2004

All well and good but……

Those courses were a long time ago but they enabled me as a stalker to reach an industry accepted standard.

From then on the standard of deer being presented to a game dealer or entered into the food chain is entirely on me.

My simple approach is for any deer that have a tag with my name on them being the absolute best in terms of shot placement and cleanliness that the dealer gets.

DMQ are not responsible for the standard of my carcasses and have only taken an interest in 3 out of the hundreds I’ve submitted over the years.

Take a bit of pride, get your DMQ qualifications as a minimum then step up to the plate and present your game dealer with something worthy of having your name and reputation attached to it.

At the end of the day, your standards and abilities are only as good as your last carcass.
 
I’ve been watching this thread with interest…..

As a deer stalker I’ve always participated in training courses in order for me to personally learn what “standards” are expected and as an opportunity for me to reach that standard as a minimum.

BDS Advanced Stalker 1996
DMQ 1 2001
DMQ 2 2004

All well and good but……

Those courses were a long time ago but they enabled me as a stalker to reach an industry accepted standard.

From then on the standard of deer being presented to a game dealer or entered into the food chain is entirely on me.

My simple approach is for any deer that have a tag with my name on them being the absolute best in terms of shot placement and cleanliness that the dealer gets.

DMQ are not responsible for the standard of my carcasses and have only taken an interest in 3 out of the hundreds I’ve submitted over the years.

Take a bit of pride, get your DMQ qualifications as a minimum then step up to the plate and present your game dealer with something worthy of having your name and reputation attached to it.

At the end of the day, your standards and abilities are only as good as your last carcass.
That is my policy too.
Trouble is I wager that many don’t.
I’m not sure how we can change this unless we make it either a higher bar at the beginning or ongoing assessment throughout.
Neither will be popular.
 
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