Obsolete calibers.

[tim@tcs]

You absolutely do need a FAC to possess "obsolete ammunition", there is no concept in law of "obsolete ammunition" ammunition is clearly defined in law, possessing any live ammunition without the appropriate certificate is an offence. If you check the act it's very clear
Requirement of firearm certificate.
This section applies to any ammunition for a firearm, except the following articles, namely:—
(a)cartridges containing five or more shot, none of which exceeds ·36 inch in diameter;
(b)ammunition for an air gun, air rifle or air pistol; and
(c)blank cartridges not more than one inch in diameter measured immediately in front of the rim or cannelure of the base of the cartridge.

So for any of the rifled arms under S58 if you posses live ammunition that doesn't meet the 3 exceptions above you need a FAC

I view this as interesting because its virtually unenforceable and a good friend had ammo collecting added to his FAC with a condition stating they must be inert!
I queried this as inert ammo is off ticket. He asked and they clarified stating it was a mistake. His collection is a mix of modern and obsolete and his license doesnt state what he has. I dont think any license would survive reprinting with that much ink on it.
Its virtually unenforceable to the point of shotgun cartridges which you didnt need a license to buy or sell if collecting!

 

[Klenchblaize]

So it’s a Martini action ……the cartridge on the left is an early one

View attachment 323459

So it’s a Martini action ……the cartridge on the left is an early one

View attachment 323459

Case concentricity is everything!

K

 

[25 Sharps]

However the 1889 is at risk of failing if you use 1911 ammunition in it!

Not if your K31 load is cast over unique.

 

[25 Sharps]

So they don’t need to be locked away? Even though there is ammunition available?? This is why I asked as there seems to be some confusion….

So they don’t need to be locked away? Even though there is ammunition available?? This is why I asked as there seems to be some confusion….

If it’s on your ticket as section 1 and you intend to shoot it, it needs locking up. If it is a wall hanger and you have no intention of shooting it then it can stay in the wall.

 

[SpikeD]

I view this as interesting because its virtually unenforceable and a good friend had ammo collecting added to his FAC with a condition stating they must be inert!
I queried this as inert ammo is off ticket. He asked and they clarified stating it was a mistake. His collection is a mix of modern and obsolete and his license doesnt state what he has. I dont think any license would survive reprinting with that much ink on it.
Its virtually unenforceable to the point of shotgun cartridges which you didnt need a license to buy or sell if collecting

Ammunition has a definition in law, see below, clearly inert ammunition doesn't meet this definition under law so no licence is required to collect it, except if it falls under the prohibited class that covers the projectile itself. A FAC stating that the ammunition must be inert is an invented rule outside of the Firearms act.
My collectors licence is simple hold 1500 rounds of 2.7mm-19.2mm for collecting / display.

Definition of ‘ammunition’​

2.11 ‘Ammunition’ means ammunition for any firearm and includes grenades, bombs and other like missiles, whether capable of use with a firearm or not; and also includes prohibited ammunition. It should be noted that the definition of ammunition does not include ingredients and components of ammunition; it is only assembled ammunition that is controlled under the Act, not component parts. Empty cartridge cases, for example, are not ‘ammunition’. There are two exceptions to this. The first is missiles for ammunition prohibited under section 5 of the 1968 Act, for example, expanding ammunition which can only be used in a pistol, or armour-piercing bullets. Such missiles are themselves defined as ‘ammunition’ and are subject to control accordingly (see Chapter 3). The second is primers - section 35 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 introduced controls on the purchase and sale of a cap type primer designed for use in metallic ammunition (see Chapter 5).

You do need a shotgun certificate to buy / sell see below.

11.4 Although a shot gun certificate is not required in order to possess or acquire shot gun cartridges used with section 2 shot guns, the production of a certificate (the original not a photocopy) is necessary as required by section 5 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 (see paragraph 5.14) in order to purchase such cartridges (unless the purchaser can show that they are entitled to possess a shot gun without a certificate, is a registered firearms dealer, or is a person who sells such cartridges by way of trade or business). Ammunition not exempted by section 1(4) of the 1968 Act may be possessed or acquired only by a firearm certificate holder. A person may purchase shot gun ammunition for a certificate holder, if they produce that person’s certificate, together with written authority from the certificate holder to purchase the ammunition for them. Note that this section (section 5 of the 1988 Act) only applies to sales.

 

[tim@tcs]

Ammunition has a definition in law, see below, clearly inert ammunition doesn't meet this definition under law so no licence is required to collect it, except if it falls under the prohibited class that covers the projectile itself. A FAC stating that the ammunition must be inert is an invented rule outside of the Firearms act.
My collectors licence is simple hold 1500 rounds of 2.7mm-19.2mm for collecting / display.

Definition of ‘ammunition’​

2.11 ‘Ammunition’ means ammunition for any firearm and includes grenades, bombs and other like missiles, whether capable of use with a firearm or not; and also includes prohibited ammunition. It should be noted that the definition of ammunition does not include ingredients and components of ammunition; it is only assembled ammunition that is controlled under the Act, not component parts. Empty cartridge cases, for example, are not ‘ammunition’. There are two exceptions to this. The first is missiles for ammunition prohibited under section 5 of the 1968 Act, for example, expanding ammunition which can only be used in a pistol, or armour-piercing bullets. Such missiles are themselves defined as ‘ammunition’ and are subject to control accordingly (see Chapter 3). The second is primers - section 35 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 introduced controls on the purchase and sale of a cap type primer designed for use in metallic ammunition (see Chapter 5).

You do need a shotgun certificate to buy / sell see below.

11.4 Although a shot gun certificate is not required in order to possess or acquire shot gun cartridges used with section 2 shot guns, the production of a certificate (the original not a photocopy) is necessary as required by section 5 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 (see paragraph 5.14) in order to purchase such cartridges (unless the purchaser can show that they are entitled to possess a shot gun without a certificate, is a registered firearms dealer, or is a person who sells such cartridges by way of trade or business). Ammunition not exempted by section 1(4) of the 1968 Act may be possessed or acquired only by a firearm certificate holder. A person may purchase shot gun ammunition for a certificate holder, if they produce that person’s certificate, together with written authority from the certificate holder to purchase the ammunition for them. Note that this section (section 5 of the 1988 Act) only applies to sales.

I wrote didnt need a shotgun license. You have for a long time but I can remember buying shotgun ammo with my Dad years ago from a farmer and no paperwork was shown in either case.I know back then at primary school (late 1960's) in the sticks one lad brought in a collection of very old brass cartridges for shotguns as he collected them!

 

[tim@tcs]

Not if your K31 load is cast over unique.

Not really a factory load though! That said Holts dropped a clanger and had a load of sect 58 Schmidt Rubins nitro proofed unnecessarily at huge risk without realising the mistake.

 

[Sinistral]

Not really a factory load though! That said Holts dropped a clanger and had a load of sect 58 Schmidt Rubins nitro proofed unnecessarily at huge risk without realising the mistake.

How would Holts know that buyers wouldn't decide to fire them?

 

[Fosbery Holster]

Case concentricity is everything!

K

It may not be concentric…….but it was free…….

 

[25 Sharps]

Not really a factory load though! That said Holts dropped a clanger and had a load of sect 58 Schmidt Rubins nitro proofed unnecessarily at huge risk without realising the mistake.

whoops!

Lovely rifles, I love my K31!!

 

[enfieldspares]

Duplicate post.

 

[enfieldspares]

Not really a factory load though! That said Holts dropped a clanger and had a load of sect 58 Schmidt Rubins nitro proofed unnecessarily at huge risk without realising the mistake.

Not. Not a mistake. All firearms, yes all firearms, sold, offered for sale or displayed for sale by law in the UK must be in proof. And bear either valid proof marks or be noted on a Proof Exemption Certificate. That these are "obsolete calibres" is of no relevance to the proof authorities as the law is the law and, besides, as another has said they have no idea whether the weapon (as with the discussion here) is for possession under s58 or for possession under s1 or s 2.

 

[tim@tcs]

They were listed as S58

 

[tim@tcs]

How would Holts know that buyers wouldn't decide to fire them?

Then they should have been proofed with the correct BP load not the nitro proof

 

[enfieldspares]

Then they should have been proofed with the correct BP load not the nitro proof

Holt's don't decide what the weapon is proofed as. That decision is the Proof House just the same as a Lee-Metford (or .303 Martini Henry) will if it needs proof be proofed with the proof cartridge for a nitro powder .303. Ditto, and with many in the past failing proof, the .455 Webley Mark IV revolver which unlike the .455 Webley Mark V still has a cylinder of "black powder" dimensions. If a weapon will chamber a smokeless cartridge of that correct calibre (even if when made only black powder or semi-smokeless cartridges were the only type of ammunition contemporarily available) it will be proofed with the proof load for the later smokeless cartridge of that correct calibre. The same that old English 3" chamber shotguns, if needing reproof, alas, now get proofed for 3" Magnum with often predictable results.

 

[Heym SR20]

Obsolete calibres are just that, obsolete. And the reason why they are obsolete is that the ammunition is no longer commercially available. There have been changes to the “obsolete” list in recent times with previously “obsolete” calibres coming back to being treated as S1, s2 or S5 Firearms.

If you have an “obsolete” calibre and you are able to procure or make ammunition then it needs to on your FAC and is thus treated as a Section1 Firearm.

Keeping it secure makes sense, as chances are you will also have ammunition to hand, and hence there is the opportunity for an unauthorised person gaining access to a rifle with ammo.

And you only need 1 cartridge to cause irreparable damage with a firearm.

 

[palmer_mike]

…

 

[kenbro]

I wrote didnt need a shotgun license. You have for a long time but I can remember buying shotgun ammo with my Dad years ago from a farmer and no paperwork was shown in either case.I know back then at primary school (late 1960's) in the sticks one lad brought in a collection of very old brass cartridges for shotguns as he collected them!

Late 1950s at our school, one lad brought in a flintlock which he found in a shed (His next door neighbour’s) and another lad took in a Canadian Ross. (Wish I still had it.)
Our teacher was very interested.
The lad that brought his Dad’s pin fire revolver got caned for cocking it and dry firing it with the ear of the lad in the desk in front between the hammer and the part where the pin would have protruded.
Doubt you’d get away with that these days.
Ken.

 

[Muirmains]

It simple if it on the list of obsolete calibres it obsolete regardless if you can get brass or not. If you want to fire it , then it’s onto cert .

 

[Jamouk]

Mick Shepard !