So it’s steel 2’s for pheasants.

[Smellydog]

A single strike to the head/neck or heart/lungs will kill if it (by penetration, presumably) causes sufficient damage. I guess that's where the idea of using bigger shot for larger quarry comes from: bigger quarry needing more penetration to get through to the vital bits.
7s for snipe/pigeon, 6 or 5 for ducks and pheasants, 5 for rabbits, 4 for hares (if I still shot them) 3 for geese - something like that?

If it was all down to just tickling the quarry all over with multiple strikes so it drops out of the air without anything other than superficial wounds, would one not use 7s (or 9s, even) for everything - and not mind about the lamentable ballistic properties of soft iron when used as shot?

I know a world champion that uses #7 for pheasants. I us #7 in my muzzleloaders for pheasants. Same for rabbits.
It's not reasonable no to suggest merely tickling game with shot is sufficient. That's ridiculous. Of course there must be penetration.
Like most thing, it runs away with itself and we get a hint of more is better sneaking in on the equation.

I shot a fox once at 33 paces with a 410 and a reload of 14g of #7 shot. The fox was side on and dropped instantly. Being young and impressed I did an autopsy.
I can't remember how many pellets hit the ribs, several or more but what I do remember vividly was that they had penetrated to the far ribs and stopped. Blood loss was significant and if I could of gained more from using larger shot I don't know how I could of been better off!

 

[Dalua]

I shot a fox once at 33 paces with a 410 and a reload of 14g of #7 shot. The fox was side on and dropped instantly. Being young and impressed I did an autopsy.
I can't remember how many pellets hit the ribs, several or more but what I do remember vividly was that they had penetrated to the far ribs and stopped. Blood loss was significant and if I could of gained more from using larger shot I don't know how I could of been better off!

One reason for my using 5 or 6 for pheasants and rabbits (when using a 12bore, at least) is that there are fewer, but deeper, holes - in a situation where holes mean fur or feathers punched into the meat. I think 7s would do as well at the ranges I shoot most things.

Have you any idea what your 33-pace fox died of? Was there no damage to the organs in the chest?

 

[Dunwaters]

Yes but away from the relatively long lived birds like geese on wetlands where is the evidence that short lived birds in farms and woodlands live long enough for clinical symptoms to develop? As for BOPs the massive increase in their populations from the late 20th century onwards indicates that lead shot is not endangering them

You could start with your own Game Conservancy study on the effects of lead ingestion on partridge chick survival.
From memory losses were around 30%.
If that’s not enough you can trawl through the interweb or past threads here on a prospective lead ban, there’s dozens to choose from.

 

[Dunwaters]

indeed but they do not shoot many fine english game guns they tend to use magnum semi autos.

you need both pattern and terminal energy to reliably and humanely kill, one with out the other is not a lot of unless you call it a rifle.

Your fine English guns are being shipped out to the USA in droves, they’re value on the UK/European market has plummeted because they are no longer suitable for the high volume, high bird shoots that are now popular.
They are being replaced by heavy over and unders with at least 2 3/4” chambers, firing loads of 34gm upwards, magnum’s if you prefer.

 

[timbrayford]

You could start with your own Game Conservancy study on the effects of lead ingestion on partridge chick survival.
From memory losses were around 30%.
If that’s not enough you can trawl through the interweb or past threads here on a prospective lead ban, there’s dozens to choose from.

I thought that partridge chicks preferred food was sawfly larvae but you live and learn. Amazing though that despite the use of lead shot for hundreds of years it was only with the advent of modern intensive agriculture and the use of both herbicides and insecticides that partridge populations crashed. But I suppose that is the crux of the matter, that bans on lead shot in terms of environmental concerns is a peripheral issue whilst the HSE and others blatantly ignore the major ones

 

[timbrayford]

Your fine English guns are being shipped out to the USA in droves, they’re value on the UK/European market has plummeted because they are no longer suitable for the high volume, high bird shoots that are now popular.
They are being replaced by heavy over and unders with at least 2 3/4” chambers, firing loads of 34gm upwards, magnum’s if you prefer.

Not by me they are, I'd need to go on a body building course to use one of those hideous OUs, and the recoil and noise of firing heavy 34g loads would take the enjoyment out of the shoot. 25g early season and 28g in my 20bore SBS suits me fine no matter how much it upsets Packham, Swift and all the other antis

 

[Liveonce]

Your fine English guns are being shipped out to the USA in droves, they’re value on the UK/European market has plummeted because they are no longer suitable for the high volume, high bird shoots that are now popular.
They are being replaced by heavy over and unders with at least 2 3/4” chambers, firing loads of 34gm upwards, magnum’s if you prefer.

I know of no way to substantiate your shipped out to the USA in droves, so will wait your evidence to prove that.
The Americans have a completely different approach and culture to their shooting than we in the u.k.

a 12gauge 2 3/4“ chamber is not a magnum as a 2 3/4” is only proofed to 930bar so not HP steel proofed you need 3” plus chambers proofed to 1320bar for HP steel.

As for high bird shoots, that is a subject on its own.

 

[Liveonce]

yep just look at them fine English game guns in use in the USA shooting geese.

 

[Dunwaters]

Not by me they are, I'd need to go on a body building course to use one of those hideous OUs, and the recoil and noise of firing heavy 34g loads would take the enjoyment out of the shoot. 25g early season and 28g in my 20bore SBS suits me fine no matter how much it upsets Packham, Swift and all the other antis

I know of no way to substantiate your shipped out to the USA in droves, so will wait your evidence to prove that.
The Americans have a completely different approach and culture to their shooting than we in the u.k.

a 12gauge 2 3/4“ chamber is not a magnum as a 2 3/4” is only proofed to 930bar so not HP steel proofed you need 3” plus chambers proofed to 1320bar for HP steel.

As for high bird shoots, that is a subject on its own.

You guys are quibbling based on nothing more than personal opinions and practices.
The study results I posted aren’t pro or anti any type of shot, the results, presented in tabular form, constitute guidance as to what levels of performance you should expect from the various options available out there.
They don’t change regardless of where you are, who made your gun or what the action is because the ballistic characteristics of a shot load don’t change with location or firearm either.
You’re going to have to do a lot better to undermine the results of a forty year study than tell me a couple of unverified anecdotes.

 

[timbrayford]

You guys are quibbling based on nothing more than personal opinions and practices.
The study results I posted aren’t pro or anti any type of shot, the results, presented in tabular form, constitute guidance as to what levels of performance you should expect from the various options available out there.
They don’t change regardless of where you are, who made your gun or what the action is because the ballistic characteristics of a shot load don’t change with location or firearm either.
You’re going to have to do a lot better to undermine the results of a forty year study than tell me a couple of unverified anecdotes.

Thats your choice but I don't see what business either you or the antis have to impose their opinions on the rest of us?

 

[Liveonce]

You guys are quibbling based on nothing more than personal opinions and practices.
The study results I posted aren’t pro or anti any type of shot, the results, presented in tabular form, constitute guidance as to what levels of performance you should expect from the various options available out there.
They don’t change regardless of where you are, who made your gun or what the action is because the ballistic characteristics of a shot load don’t change with location or firearm either.
You’re going to have to do a lot better to undermine the results of a forty year study than tell me a couple of unverified anecdotes.

If their is a total ban on all lead shot, then shooting will continue but not how we historically know it we will all (unless very rich) be like the yanks shooting 12gauge 3 1/2” chambered autos with steel shot.

Always assuming sufficient steel shot is available and don‘t think it’s utopia as steel shot uses vastly more energy to manufacture, transported from China and hence vastly more carbon dioxide to warm the planet.
Then the mess which is biodegradable wads.

 

[Dodder]

I've yet to try steel cartridges as I haven't needed to, but I do remember trying bismuth in my 20b on an inland duck shoot many years ago. I'd shot in Wales the week before where we all used lead to excellent effect on the Duck. Used the 20b bismuth on Duck the following week and the results horrified me. The ranges were significantly less than the week before and I was hitting them hard, but they just seemed to shudder and carry on.
I know the arguments for non-toxic shot but it does rather seem to me that certainly bismuth seems to cause more wounding & hence suffering than lead.

 

[Liveonce]

I've yet to try steel cartridges as I haven't needed to, but I do remember trying bismuth in my 20b on an inland duck shoot many years ago. I'd shot in Wales the week before where we all used lead to excellent effect on the Duck. Used the 20b bismuth on Duck the following week and the results horrified me. The ranges were significantly less than the week before and I was hitting them hard, but they just seemed to shudder and carry on.
I know the arguments for non-toxic shot but it does rather seem to me that certainly bismuth seems to cause more wounding & hence suffering than lead.

You say many years back, it may be back when bismuth shot had little tin in it, tin is very expensive, Bismuth is brittle and hence tin is added but it was not enough, so they now add more tin, hence current bismuth shot performance is much better provided you don’t mind paying the very high price for it, which is why steel shot is the poor man’s choice.

However, lead shot being more dense than bismuth or steel shot will always be superior.

 

[Smellydog]

Have you any idea what your 33-pace fox died of? Was there no damage to the organs in the chest?

Lead poisoning
No, it's lungs were perforated and it's aorta. Bled out internally.

 

[Dalua]

Lead poisoning
No, it's lungs were perforated and it's aorta. Bled out internally.

Sorry - missed the 'far' in your post!

 

[Dunwaters]

Thats your choice but I don't see what business either you or the antis have to impose their opinions on the rest of us?

I am not imposing my opinion, all I am doing is pointing out the lack of scientific rigour in your responses to the information presented.
You on the other hand are presenting your unverified opinions as fact and refusing to acknowledge that the information presented has been reviewed and accepted as a true representation of the available evidence.
Under the circumstances it’s you who are imposing your views and opinions on other's while refusing to consider alternatives contrary to those dearly cherished beliefs.

 

[enfieldspares]

If their is a total ban on all lead shot, then shooting will continue but not how we historically know it we will all (unless very rich) be like the yanks shooting 12gauge 3 1/2” chambered autos with steel shot.

Yes. I fear that will be for the majority of any roost shooting or (what little) decoy shooting I do it will be the case. To wit I bought this from Holt's last sale and will collect in the New Year. About as "classic" as you can get in autoloading shotguns and in historical terms a design that pre-dates Boss's single trigger, Holland's 1922 self-opening patent and, of course Browning's own O/U "Superposed". Yet apparently it's somehow not traditional? It'll join the 16 bore A5 I already have and the 12 bore A5 also presently possessed as the barrel on this "new to me" is choked improved cylinder.

 

[Dunwaters]

If their is a total ban on all lead shot, then shooting will continue but not how we historically know it we will all (unless very rich) be like the yanks shooting 12gauge 3 1/2” chambered autos with steel shot.

Always assuming sufficient steel shot is available and don‘t think it’s utopia as steel shot uses vastly more energy to manufacture, transported from China and hence vastly more carbon dioxide to warm the planet.
Then the mess which is biodegradable wads.

Can you kindly explain the link between the research and any ban on lead ammunition?
Or China. or biodegradable wads?
The study confined itself to the lethality of the payload, the content of the payload was irrelevant except for its effect on lethality with the weight and velocity of the payload also being factored into the results.

 

[StephenToast]

If their is a total ban on all lead shot, then shooting will continue but not how we historically know it we will all (unless very rich) be like the yanks shooting 12gauge 3 1/2” chambered autos with steel shot.

Always assuming sufficient steel shot is available and don‘t think it’s utopia as steel shot uses vastly more energy to manufacture, transported from China and hence vastly more carbon dioxide to warm the planet.
Then the mess which is biodegradable wads.

Bollocks.

I've been shooting non-lead, mostly steel for nearly two decades now. Never owned a 3 1/2 inch chambered gun.

 

[stalkerboydy]

Bollocks.

I've been shooting non-lead, mostly steel for nearly two decades now. Never owned a 3 1/2 inch chambered gun.

And over the last month I've been shooting foreshore Pinks along with flighting Grey's and Pinks with Hull Extreme Pheasant 20ga with all of 1oz Steel Shot 3's most was higher than the average pheasant shot. The last two Driven shoots i used to very good effect 20ga 24 grams Steel 5's and 4's whilst most around me used Gamebore Black Gold etc 34grm Lead 3-4's