It’s not called safety, an experienced shooter can use a calibre larger than some land is cleared for perfectly safely.
You’re digging deeper and deeper and you don’t seem to know when to stop.
Open Ticket With Authority To Shoot on un Police Verified Land
- Thread starter Envillegc1
- Start date
You’re digging deeper and deeper and you don’t seem to know when to stop.
No, this often isn't the case. The landowner might not even own the sporting rights, in which case anything to do with land clearance for FAC purposes he'll be totally ignorant of.
Even if he does own the sporting rights, if they're leased to a third party then it will be that third party who requested the land check, in which case again the landowner may not be privy.
Most landowners, unless they take a personal interest in shooting activities, wouldn't have a clue about whether their land had been cleared for FAC purposes.
Sounds fine, but the landowner does not need to have any knowledge or understanding of ballistics, shooting law, stalking to give you permission to shoot on his land., i.e. they are not 'qualified' to tell you when, where and what to use to shoot with, not even necessarily if they hold an FAC, as theirs will relate to their shooting not yours.
If one checks with the police or landowner to find out what has been done before, how does that relate to you shooting under your open ticket? If the land has been cleared for FAC applicants/holders for .5 calibre rifles does that mean it is always safe for any to shoot everywhere on the land, conversely if its only cleared for .22 FAC air does that mean its unsafe to shoot anything other, clearly neither scenario is right, as safety is a matter of the shooter under the particular circumstances they are shooting.
In practical terms of a defence, it means diddly squat, because when it comes down to it, when you pull the trigger, everyhitng that flows form that is down to you, irrespective of how careful or professional you think you have been. It may be used as mitigation, but if you shoot unsafely and are prosecuted as a result it will be down to what you did on the day, irrespective or your enquiries.
Im not getting at you, just pointing out the reality of safety related law.
Overlay
Well-Known Member
I agree with you 100%.
Safety is paramount, as said previously there is need to check as much as you can from whatever corner, as long as you’ve done your best as the person discharging the firearm in the event of an incident, which makes no difference anyway, it would be investigated the same as any other as far as the police are concerned
Gathering as much info on a piece of ground should be the first stop for yourself or for any other persons that could be affected by your actions
Whether people want to interpretate or prefer to not or even ignore is fine by me
As I said I do what I do and as everyone has a choice the is down to the individual
End of
Safety is paramount, as said previously there is need to check as much as you can from whatever corner, as long as you’ve done your best as the person discharging the firearm in the event of an incident, which makes no difference anyway, it would be investigated the same as any other as far as the police are concerned
Gathering as much info on a piece of ground should be the first stop for yourself or for any other persons that could be affected by your actions
Whether people want to interpretate or prefer to not or even ignore is fine by me
As I said I do what I do and as everyone has a choice the is down to the individual
End of
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
@Overlay
At the risk of become one of those bald men...
Whatever additional 'checks' you feel you need to conduct, are a matter entirely for you.
However, it would clarify issues somewhat, if you can confirm wherever your FAC has open or closed conditions.
To add another 'buggeration' factor - it is of course possible for your FAC to have both 'open' and 'closed' conditions, dependant on the vagaries of your FLD and what chamberings you possess.
At the risk of become one of those bald men...
Whatever additional 'checks' you feel you need to conduct, are a matter entirely for you.
However, it would clarify issues somewhat, if you can confirm wherever your FAC has open or closed conditions.
To add another 'buggeration' factor - it is of course possible for your FAC to have both 'open' and 'closed' conditions, dependant on the vagaries of your FLD and what chamberings you possess.
He has confirmed it is open, and that he operates commercially.
The issue is he is saying it’s necessary to check clearance, then operate by any limits placed on the parcel of land (@GlennUK) I guess as some sort of validation to what you intend to do, even when you have an open ticket. Now, it’s fine for him to say he chooses to do so, but it is wrong to say it is necessary for others, as it is not!
As above, by that logic I would not be granted any deer or fox calibres ( I have more than 1 or 2) and I should never shoot any foxes or deer with centrefires on my ground.
In short, he is posting the wrong answer to the question just because he chooses to do something that is not necessary.
Ultimately if a shot goes wrong the person who pulls the trigger is liable whether they are shooting with something the land is cleared for or bigger.
‘Check as much as you can’I agree with you 100%.
Safety is paramount, as said previously there is need to check as much as you can from whatever corner, as long as you’ve done your best as the person discharging the firearm in the event of an incident, which makes no difference anyway, it would be investigated the same as any other as far as the police are concerned
Gathering as much info on a piece of ground should be the first stop for yourself or for any other persons that could be affected by your actions
Whether people want to interpretate or prefer to not or even ignore is fine by me
As I said I do what I do and as everyone has a choice the is down to the individual
End of
What does that even mean.
Why are you evading the question, should I or should I not, as an open certificate holder, be shooting centrefires on my ground only cleared for rimfire?
Backstop has nothing to do with land clearance. I could take a wildly unsafe shot with a .22rf on land cleared for .375. End of
Bobbins. I’ve several bits of ground I take plenty of deer off and no idea what they are cleared for. In one case I’m pretty sure it’s not ever been cleared. Doesn’t make it illegal or unsafe for me to shoot (open ticket).
Backstop has nothing to do with land clearance. I could take a wildly unsafe shot with a .22rf on land cleared for .375. End of
Bobbins. I’ve several bits of ground I take plenty of deer off and no idea what they are cleared for. In one case I’m pretty sure it’s not ever been cleared. Doesn’t make it illegal or unsafe for me to shoot (open ticket).
Exactly this, I've used firearms on land that would never be cleared, but by careful bullet choice and being very selective in where I shot, plus doing it only when the ground was soft it was safe.
Hunters moon
Well-Known Member
When I was last visited by Essex police he had access to land usage but obviously begs the question, if I deem land fit for centre fire and they don't?
Jon P
Well-Known Member
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
Thank god for Scotland
None of this nonsense applies.
And after catching up with this thread I’m again amazed at folk making rods for their own back.
They would faint if they saw some of the places I’ve discharged a .243
and all perfectly safe.
None of this nonsense applies.
And after catching up with this thread I’m again amazed at folk making rods for their own back.
They would faint if they saw some of the places I’ve discharged a .243
and all perfectly safe.
sikamalc
Administrator
Ok we seem to be going round in circles here.
Some on here seem confused at the difference between and open and closed ticket.
If you have a closed ticket, you may only take your rifle to and from a piece of land that has been cleared for that specific calibre of weapon by the Chief constable. Your certificate may also include certain restrictions about sighting in on land and what species you may hunt/shoot. If you are caught taking it anywhere else you stand to be arrested and your FAC revoked.
An Open ticket is usually given after you have had an FAC for 5 years, and you are considered experienced enough to know your quarry and safety. Although it goes without saying you should know this even with a closed ticket.
An open ticket allows you to take your rifle on any land where you have the right to do so. This is where its important to have any permission in writing. Thus avoiding any confusion if stopped by the police or landowner. Its down to you to ensure you shoot safely, at all times, whatever the condition on your licence.
So if your granny has a 5 acre orchard with a Roe buck in it, and is surrounded by houses, and you have a closed ticket, there is NO way you should be there with your rifle. Nor would any self respecting FEO give you permission on such an area.
On the flip side if you have a OPEN ticket it would be permissable for you to shoot the orchard. The safety aspect would be highly questionable, unless a high seat was used. But even then you may find its not achievable. But the onus is on you.
Having sat briefly on a police panel, sometime back, and also been responsible for a large collection of weapons, some section 5 it goes without saying that safety with any firearm is upmost and foremost the most important thing as responsible firearm owners.
If you are in doubt about the conditions on your FAC always check with your FEO first. But always read the conditions on your FAC, some do not that I have guided in the past. One young man turned up to stalk with me some years back, with his 243, which he had an FAC for. After looking at his ticket, it was only conditioned to take to and from a military or civilian range where adequate insurance and safety was in place.
Needless to say, he used one of my rifles under the estate rifle system to stalk that afternoon. But even his father who accompanied him, had not realised they had broken the conditions of his FAC by bringing his rifle down to stalk with me, and if stopped on the way home, would have had some convincing a police officer.
Some on here seem confused at the difference between and open and closed ticket.
If you have a closed ticket, you may only take your rifle to and from a piece of land that has been cleared for that specific calibre of weapon by the Chief constable. Your certificate may also include certain restrictions about sighting in on land and what species you may hunt/shoot. If you are caught taking it anywhere else you stand to be arrested and your FAC revoked.
An Open ticket is usually given after you have had an FAC for 5 years, and you are considered experienced enough to know your quarry and safety. Although it goes without saying you should know this even with a closed ticket.
An open ticket allows you to take your rifle on any land where you have the right to do so. This is where its important to have any permission in writing. Thus avoiding any confusion if stopped by the police or landowner. Its down to you to ensure you shoot safely, at all times, whatever the condition on your licence.
So if your granny has a 5 acre orchard with a Roe buck in it, and is surrounded by houses, and you have a closed ticket, there is NO way you should be there with your rifle. Nor would any self respecting FEO give you permission on such an area.
On the flip side if you have a OPEN ticket it would be permissable for you to shoot the orchard. The safety aspect would be highly questionable, unless a high seat was used. But even then you may find its not achievable. But the onus is on you.
Having sat briefly on a police panel, sometime back, and also been responsible for a large collection of weapons, some section 5 it goes without saying that safety with any firearm is upmost and foremost the most important thing as responsible firearm owners.
If you are in doubt about the conditions on your FAC always check with your FEO first. But always read the conditions on your FAC, some do not that I have guided in the past. One young man turned up to stalk with me some years back, with his 243, which he had an FAC for. After looking at his ticket, it was only conditioned to take to and from a military or civilian range where adequate insurance and safety was in place.
Needless to say, he used one of my rifles under the estate rifle system to stalk that afternoon. But even his father who accompanied him, had not realised they had broken the conditions of his FAC by bringing his rifle down to stalk with me, and if stopped on the way home, would have had some convincing a police officer.
If i might suggest he had access to some land usage, not all land usage. If you are granted an open ticket, or a slot that is open, it says (paraphrasing) you can shoot anywhere you have permission to shoot which would include land cleared by the police unless otherwise specified on your FAC
On the other hand, if you have a closed ticket/slot, it says only on land deemed suitable for the police which is what they hold on their register. FWIW my back field had not been cleared for FAC use at at all, it now has been for .17hmr. I now also have an open slot for a 6.,5cm via a variation which means i can shoot that land with it too.
If i might suggest, it is always wise to have permission to shoot on land in writing.
This should clarify between you and the landowner/rights holder what is, and is not permissible to shoot, any restrictions imposed by the rights holder/land owner, etc.
As others have hinted/sad, permission may not be form the landowner, but form a 3rd party who holds the shooting rights over the land, and therefore you may have to be able to demonstrate to the landowner that you are acting lawfully.
In the event the police are called, this is evidence (not necessarily proof) that you have a right to be doing what you are doing, where and when you are doing it (assuming you are shooting within the confines of the permission).
The reason i say it is not proof, is that the rights holder/land owner may need to verify that you have the permission purported, and it has not been revoked/altered at any time.
JMHO
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
As long as you realise that written permission is not a requirement .
The police cannot insist you have it either.
agreed
Unless you wish to lend a rifle under the estate rifle laws.
Whitefront
Well-Known Member
There is no actual legal requirement for this, is there? Just good advice. to do so in order to obviate a potential challenge.
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