SGA campaign for female deer season succeeds.

[David Barker]

What was the failed pilot?

By and large I agree with you - I should have said ‘they have less money than they think they need, and are under pressure to make savings’.

The three pilots funded by NS to pay deer stalkers a kill bounty on there deer of £70 per deer over and above what they normally Cull. The take up was so pour that they had to unload the unused cash as quick as possible so they can try and get the same budget for deer next financial year.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

VSS England BASC BDS and NGO should look at this and be ashamed. There will always be those that don't care but some of us do this is a win for the Stalkers up north and a win for the deer giving them some sort of respite through the tough winter.

Presenting this an England vs Scotland organisational issue is inaccurate and asserting that all the deer managers in Scotland apart from SGA members 'don't care' is rather divisive and certainly not SGA policy. Moreover, I would imagine that there are a range of views within the SGA membership on this topic. All the shooting organisations in Scotland, including BASC and SGA, work together. You are unfortunately misrepresenting and indeed undermining the SGA with comments like this.

 

[David Barker]

Presenting this an England vs Scotland organisational issue is inaccurate and asserting that all the deer managers in Scotland apart from SGA members 'don't care' is rather divisive and certainly not SGA policy. Moreover, I would imagine that there are a range of views within the SGA membership on this topic. All the shooting organisations in Scotland, including BASC and SGA, work together. You are unfortunately misrepresenting and indeed undermining the SGA with comments like this.

Really Conor i didn't see one BASC member at the meeting but i could be wrong if they were there they were in hiding. I don't undermine any organisation i tell it as it is BASC have continually lay down for the Gov Department to get what they can. Now how is the Scottish chap in charge of BASC scotland.

The very important meeting for those with the staying power. Rural Affairs and Islands Committee | Scottish Parliament TV

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Really Conor i didn't see one BASC member at the meeting but i could be wrong if they were there they were in hiding. I don't undermine any organisation i tell it as it is BASC have continually lay down for the Gov Department to get what they can. Now how is the Scottish chap in charge of BASC scotland.

The very important meeting for those with the staying power. Rural Affairs and Islands Committee | Scottish Parliament TV

I am not looking for an argument, I am simply presenting facts as they are. As regards BASC Scotland here is what was submitted in response to last year's consultation:

BASC has no issues with the extension of all the female seasons to the 31st March. Indeed,
we think the close season should actually commence on the 1st April. We do however have
concerns about the proposal to move the start of the female season to the 1st October. There
is growing evidence of later calving in red deer as a result of climate change. Several scientific
studies along with much anecdotal support from practitioners, have found red deer
parturition dates have advanced by up to 12 days over the last few decades. Therefore, an
earlier female cull could potentially result in hinds being shot that still have dependent young,
especially if this phenomenon continues on this trajectory with forecast climate change.

We therefore believe that the female open season for all deer in Scotland should be changed
to 1st November until 31st March to bring it in line with all the other UK nations, who have
established these dates based on animal welfare considerations. This would still increase the
length of the season by 29%. Where this is not sufficient time to achieve reduced impacts then
deer managers will still have as a last resort, the option to follow best practice out of season
shooting through authorisation by NatureScot.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

I am not looking for an argument, I am simply presenting facts as they are. As regards BASC Scotland here is what was submitted in response to last year's consultation:

BASC has no issues with the extension of all the female seasons to the 31st March. Indeed,
we think the close season should actually commence on the 1st April. We do however have
concerns about the proposal to move the start of the female season to the 1st October. There
is growing evidence of later calving in red deer as a result of climate change. Several scientific
studies along with much anecdotal support from practitioners, have found red deer
parturition dates have advanced by up to 12 days over the last few decades. Therefore, an
earlier female cull could potentially result in hinds being shot that still have dependent young,
especially if this phenomenon continues on this trajectory with forecast climate change.

We therefore believe that the female open season for all deer in Scotland should be changed
to 1st November until 31st March to bring it in line with all the other UK nations, who have
established these dates based on animal welfare considerations. This would still increase the
length of the season by 29%. Where this is not sufficient time to achieve reduced impacts then
deer managers will still have as a last resort, the option to follow best practice out of season
shooting through authorisation by NatureScot.

I am not looking for an argument, I am simply presenting facts as they are. As regards BASC Scotland here is what was submitted in response to last year's consultation:

BASC has no issues with the extension of all the female seasons to the 31st March. Indeed,
we think the close season should actually commence on the 1st April. We do however have
concerns about the proposal to move the start of the female season to the 1st October. There
is growing evidence of later calving in red deer as a result of climate change. Several scientific
studies along with much anecdotal support from practitioners, have found red deer
parturition dates have advanced by up to 12 days over the last few decades. Therefore, an
earlier female cull could potentially result in hinds being shot that still have dependent young,
especially if this phenomenon continues on this trajectory with forecast climate change.

We therefore believe that the female open season for all deer in Scotland should be changed
to 1st November until 31st March to bring it in line with all the other UK nations, who have
established these dates based on animal welfare considerations. This would still increase the
length of the season by 29%. Where this is not sufficient time to achieve reduced impacts then
deer managers will still have as a last resort, the option to follow best practice out of season
shooting through authorisation by NatureScot.

I can’t fault anything you posted Anyone who would wish to see female seasons brought forward quite frankly doesn’t understand deer biology.

 

[Mungo]

. Several scientific
studies along with much anecdotal support from practitioners, have found red deer
parturition dates have advanced by up to 12 days over the last few decades.

You sure about that?

The Rum Red Deer project is one of (if not the only) systematically collected data set, and it shows the exact opposite: birth dates are getting EARLIER.

Please could you cite your sources?

 

[Tim.243]

I can’t fault anything you posted Anyone who would wish to see female seasons brought forward quite frankly doesn’t understand deer biology.

With your understanding of deer biology does this include the male of the deer species?

 

[David Barker]

I am not looking for an argument, I am simply presenting facts as they are. As regards BASC Scotland here is what was submitted in response to last year's consultation:

BASC has no issues with the extension of all the female seasons to the 31st March. Indeed,
we think the close season should actually commence on the 1st April. We do however have
concerns about the proposal to move the start of the female season to the 1st October. There
is growing evidence of later calving in red deer as a result of climate change. Several scientific
studies along with much anecdotal support from practitioners, have found red deer
parturition dates have advanced by up to 12 days over the last few decades. Therefore, an
earlier female cull could potentially result in hinds being shot that still have dependent young,
especially if this phenomenon continues on this trajectory with forecast climate change.

We therefore believe that the female open season for all deer in Scotland should be changed
to 1st November until 31st March to bring it in line with all the other UK nations, who have
established these dates based on animal welfare considerations. This would still increase the
length of the season by 29%. Where this is not sufficient time to achieve reduced impacts then
deer managers will still have as a last resort, the option to follow best practice out of season
shooting through authorisation by NatureScot.

I am not looking for an argument but BASC in scotland are out of touch. I see most supporting you in this are England based. I here you new man in scotland is also England based. This is not good when most of our native red deer are in the far north of scotland with a totally different unforgiving climate. I feel like BASC should change its name to EASC. Now3 if BASC Scotland cannot make meeting that effect our passion sport professions then maybe they should not comment.

 

[Mungo]

There is growing evidence of later calving in red deer as a result of climate change. Several scientific
studies along with much anecdotal support from practitioners, have found red deer
parturition dates have advanced by up to 12 days over the last few decades.

This erroneous claim even appeared in the Scotsman last week, and Prof Josephine Pemberton (who runs the red deer project on Rum) has sent them a letter correcting them. I have been given permission to present it here.

Your claim that calving date has got later by 12 days matches the actual data - just in the wrong direction.

This stems from a misunderstanding of the word 'advances'. An ecologist studying phenology (the timing of natural events, like calving) says 'advances' when they mean 'gets earlier in the year'.

 

[Freeforester]

If it's so easy to get an oos licence, it begs the question, why have the process around it, surely the time for the additional red tape and the cost associated could be better allocated?

Welcome to 21st c. quangoland and self-perpetuating and -justifying beauraucracy, none of which amounts to a hill of beans in terms of either efficiency or efficacy.

Scottish sporting estates by and large are overseen by the watershed or geographically demarcated DMG’s in which they find themselves, and are overseen and regulated by Naturescot. This arrangement results in broadly acceptable deer numbers on the hill. The better the Hill Men perform their duties, the lighter the NS touch, and the better they in turn look to their employers - some Estates have their hind cull taken by Hogmanay, at great effort; - why? To afford their remaining deer peace, during the harshest period of the year. It’s a welfare thing, often poorly understood by those unfamiliar with living animal husbandry, or ignored by those with an agenda.


Meanwhile, the largest Scottish landowner - FLS - harbours a) the highest densities of deer, with b) the highest fecundity rates, within their area ‘under management’ on behalf of the Scottish Ministers, whose ‘understanding/view’ of the issue is akin to it being a ‘toffs and their lackeys’ problem, not wishing to confront their own deficiencies, inefficiencies and general ineffectiveness on addressing these and frankly most matters they are involved in, and the same of their departments charged with dealing with same. We pay for this.
#wordyworthlesswasters

Btw, hands up anyone who imagines that out of season venison of either sex is something that can be described as a ‘valuable’ or ‘high quality’ food resource’? Only a fool would contemplate suggesting that it is, though some seem oblivious to the obvious.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

With your understanding of deer biology does this include the male of the deer species?

I would happily see male seasons scrapped in England too. Basically I believe in as much freedom as possible to shoot what you like without possibility of causing suffering due to leaving dependants. I know due to your previous posts that you believe the fallow female season should be brought forward due to your misconceptions stemming from seeing unaccompanied fawns before November 1st and the fact that you struggle to extract deer when it gets wet.

 

[Tim.243]

I would happily see male seasons scrapped in England too. Basically I believe in as much freedom as possible to shoot what you like without possibility of causing suffering due to leaving dependants. I know due to your previous posts that you believe the fallow female season should be brought forward due to your misconceptions stemming from seeing unaccompanied fawns before November 1st and the fact that you struggle to extract deer when it gets wet.

With out getting into what I do and don't understand I did ask you
With your understanding of deer biology does this include the male of the deer species?

 

[RCS Deer Management]

With out getting into what I do and don't understand I did ask you
With your understanding of deer biology does this include the male of the deer species?

I’m sorry Tim I don’t understand your question, I thought I did but if you were asking what I thought you were then my previous reply answered your question?

 

[Freeforester]

I would happily see male seasons scrapped in England too. Basically I believe in as much freedom as possible to shoot what you like without possibility of causing suffering due to leaving dependants. I know due to your previous posts that you believe the fallow female season should be brought forward due to your misconceptions stemming from seeing unaccompanied fawns before November 1st and the fact that you struggle to extract deer when it gets wet.

Off topic I know, but a look at the direction of travel of the deer populations over the past decade where shooting males all year round seems to result in an increase in overall population numbers. It will fill the freezer, even perhaps with something approaching the edible, but it won’t reduce recruitment, and as time is limited and the latter objective is the matter that is most pressing, an OOS male is merely a waste of time if numbers on the ground are already out of the control of the practitioner.
A FCS Wildlife ranger ‘manager’ once ‘suggested’ to me that should they become aware that I was passing up shooting males out of season they would act to address the matter; I was shortly after out in the forest I was paying to do their work in, and out walked a buck in front of me. After a few moments the ‘sacrificial offering’ indicated to me the presence of others by its demeanour and ear movements. Sure enough, out popped three females to join him. He left the scene a few minutes later, alone and somewhat confused by the noise and apparent disappearance of his bevvy of ladies.

The count was 3 does and a further 6 embryos.

Just because one is called a manager it does not always follow that you know what managing (effectively) entails.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

You sure about that?

The Rum Red Deer project is one of (if not the only) systematically collected data set, and it shows the exact opposite: birth dates are getting EARLIER.

Please could you cite your sources?

Sure. These are the sources cited:

The role of selection and evolution in changing parturition date in a red deer population

The role of selection and evolution in changing parturition date in a red deer population

Adaptive genetic evolution and phenotypic plasticity both contribute to a two-week advancement of birth dates earlier in spring in a deer population subject to temperature warming over four decades.

journals.plos.org

Advancing breeding phenology in response to environmental change in a wild red deer population

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2486.2010.02382.x

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Off topic I know, but a look at the direction of travel of the deer populations over the past decade where shooting males all year round seems to result in an increase in overall population numbers. It will fill the freezer, even perhaps with something approaching the edible, but it won’t reduce recruitment, and as time is limited and the latter objective is the matter that is most pressing, an OOS male is merely a waste of time if numbers on the ground are already out of the control of the practitioner.
A FCS Wildlife ranger ‘manager’ once ‘suggested’ to me that should they become aware that I was passing up shooting males out of season they would act to address the matter; I was shortly after out in the forest I was paying to do their work in, and out walked a buck in front of me. After a few moments the ‘sacrificial offering’ indicated to me the presence of others by its demeanour and ear movements. Sure enough, out popped three females to join him. He left the scene a few minutes later, alone and somewhat confused by the noise and apparent disappearance of his bevvy of ladies.

The count was 3 does and a further 6 embryos.

Just because one is called a manager it does not always follow that you know what managing (effectively) entails.

I understand all of that entirely, Iv had the same experience time and time again so don’t believe chasing males constantly is the best approach. But that’s the thing, just because something is in season doesn’t mean that you have to shoot it, you simply have the choice to if you need to. If say you have a dozen fallow bucks doing damage to a particular site every day, you have the choice to go and thin them out. There would be no negative impact to the welfare of other deer by doing so, so I can’t see a reason why you shouldn’t be allowed to.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I am not looking for an argument but BASC in scotland are out of touch. I see most supporting you in this are England based. I here you new man in scotland is also England based. This is not good when most of our native red deer are in the far north of scotland with a totally different unforgiving climate. I feel like BASC should change its name to EASC. Now3 if BASC Scotland cannot make meeting that effect our passion sport professions then maybe they should not comment.

There are around 5,500 BASC members in Scotland actively taking part in deer management - they range from professional deer managers to recreational stalkers - across Scotland’s many diverse landscapes. As regards the meeting you refer to the parliamentary clerks failed to include BASC Scotland, the BDS and Lowland Deer Network Scotland from the meeting, which was wholly unacceptable.

 

[Mungo]

Sure. These are the sources cited:

The role of selection and evolution in changing parturition date in a red deer population

The role of selection and evolution in changing parturition date in a red deer population

Adaptive genetic evolution and phenotypic plasticity both contribute to a two-week advancement of birth dates earlier in spring in a deer population subject to temperature warming over four decades.

journals.plos.org

Advancing breeding phenology in response to environmental change in a wild red deer population

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2486.2010.02382.x

Connor - those papers show the exact opposite of what you claim.

They show birth date getting EARLIER.

This is what 'advancing' means in ecology.

You are making a strong case for scientific illiteracy in BASC, which is a bit worrying.

 

[Tim.243]

I’m sorry Tim I don’t understand your question, I thought I did but if you were asking what I thought you were then my previous reply answered your question?

Where this thread is about female deer and you mentioned
Anyone who would wish to see female seasons brought forward quite frankly doesn’t understand deer biology.
I asked
With your understanding of deer biology does this include the male of the deer species?
Also your misconceptions stemming from seeing unaccompanied fawns before November 1st and the fact that you struggle to extract deer when it gets wet.

What I cant see is how people can know which Buck/Stag has mated with which female having watched decent sized fallow with what people would say a "poor heads" nip in when the big lad has lost the plot and is chasing every thing in sight they then take their chance and mount does.


Hence who is the Dad, I shot a muntjac buck with 2 white lower legs then over time in that area shot 3 more like it so he was the "at best guess the dad"

I don't struggle getting deer off when it is wet as I have my deer cart, it was a comment knowing farmers and land owners who are quite happy for me to drive on tramlines headlands when the ground is dry for stalking pigeon shooting but when it is wet it can be a long way to drag deer back to the truck. I deal with a good number of farmers for repairs and shooting so have learnt over the last 51 years of shooting on their lands that getting stuck makes you look stupid and makes a mess.

 

[VSS]

Btw, hands up anyone who imagines that out of season venison of either sex is something that can be described as a ‘valuable’ or ‘high quality’ food resource’? Only a fool would contemplate suggesting that it is, though some seem oblivious to the obvious.

By the same logic, the stag season should most definitely be closed during the rut.
As for pregnant females, eating quality may be increasingly affected during the third trimester, but not before.

If venison quality had been the principal argument put forward in favour of retaining seasonality, backed up with some evidence of the decline at certain times of year, that would have been a very valid argument (in my opinion), and one that I would support. Nobody (I hope) likes the idea of shooting something that's unsaleable, or which might give consumers a poor eating experience.

When deer are shot in Scotland is of no particular interest to me (or many others on this site, I should think), other than in so far as it's not very helpful when venison from (for example) rutting stags is placed on the market and damages the reputation of venison across the board.
My gripe in this particular instance is the fact that an opportunity to give greater autonomy to deer managers was missed, and that the SGA campaign was based on a falsehood (ie, that hinds are heavily pregnant and close to giving birth in March) in order to get emotional backing.
This, I fear, is likely to come back to haunt us during future debates over legislation changes, and not just in Scotland.