SGA campaign for female deer season succeeds.

[David Barker]

I'm a tad confused, which tbf isn't really an isolated incident!

If the Scottish Government have decreed that shooting female Red deer up to the end of March is a mental health issue for the stalker/culler then how can they possibly now offer an OOS licence to do so? Surely following their ruling we will see a challenge to the OOS licence, and tbh I cannot see how such a challenge would fail as the Scottish Government has now set a clear precedent/ruling.

The fact they have kept the season has the effect of no one can push them in to doing something they do not wish to do. In the highlands there can be lots of pressures on landowners from NGO,s ETC. That said it they feel there is not concern then get a oos ITS EASY.

 

[Mungo]

The fact they have kept the season has the effect of no one can push them in to doing something they do not wish to do. In the highlands there can be lots of pressures on landowners from NGO,s ETC. That said it they feel there is not concern then get a oos ITS EASY.

OOS may well become difficult now that the SGA has established that there are Health and Safety concerns for stalkers expected to shoot after February…

 

[David Barker]

OOS may well become difficult now that the SGA has established that there are Health and Safety concerns for stalkers expected to shoot after February…

I am sure that will not be the case Mungo but if it is then maybe that's good . Change is not always a good thing.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Yes.

But you’d then need to be careful with what arguments you then advanced based on that.

It weakens any argument for delaying the onset of hind culling in autumn.

Thanks. The current open season for red hinds is Oct 21 to Feb 15 inclusive. Last year the Scottish Government proposal was that the open season for red hinds should be changed to Oct 1 to March 30 inclusive.

Managing deer for climate and nature: consultation

We are consulting on proposals to modernise the legislation which governs deer management in Scotland and ensure it is fit for purpose in the context of the biodiversity and climate crises, alongside a small number of proposals concerned with farmed and kept deer.

www.gov.scot

Is my understanding of this correct?

 

[Mungo]

Thanks. The current open season for red hinds is Oct 21 to Feb 15 inclusive. Last year the Scottish Government proposal was that the open season for red hinds should be changed to Oct 1 to March 30 inclusive.

Managing deer for climate and nature: consultation

We are consulting on proposals to modernise the legislation which governs deer management in Scotland and ensure it is fit for purpose in the context of the biodiversity and climate crises, alongside a small number of proposals concerned with farmed and kept deer.

www.gov.scot

Is my understanding of this correct?

Correct.

With calving date moving earlier, the proposal to shift the start of the hind season to 1 Oct actually makes sense. The calves are born earlier, therefore are older in October, therefore shooting a hind in early October is less likely to leave an orphan.

Extending the season into March is more controversial. The births are not yet so early that this risks creating orphans - at the moment, the very earliest seem to be early May. There are occasional reports of late April births.

So it is within the realms of possibility that within the next 20-30 years, we start to see a few births in early April and possibly late March. Therefore there is a risk that putting the end of the hind season at 30 March might end up leaving orphaned calves at some point in the future. Though that assumes (1) birth date continues to get earlier, which assumes (2) the rut continues to get earlier. No one knows if this is likely or even possible. Though given that the rut appears to be strongly influenced by day length, it seems likely that the amount it can shift is limited.

That’s really a long winded way of saying that there aren’t strong ecological reasons to object to a hind season running from 1 Oct to 31 March.

Which is why the SGA went with stalker mental health.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Correct.

With calving date moving earlier, the proposal to shift the start of the hind season to 1 Oct actually makes sense. The calves are born earlier, therefore are older in October, therefore shooting a hind in early October is less likely to leave an orphan.

Extending the season into March is more controversial. The births are not yet so early that this risks creating orphans - at the moment, the very earliest seem to be early May. There are occasional reports of late April births.

So it is within the realms of possibility that within the next 20-30 years, we start to see a few births in early April and possibly late March. Therefore there is a risk that putting the end of the hind season at 30 March might end up leaving orphaned calves at some point in the future. Though that assumes (1) birth date continues to get earlier, which assumes (2) the rut continues to get earlier. No one knows if this is likely or even possible. Though given that the rut appears to be strongly influenced by day length, it seems likely that the amount it can shift is limited.

That’s really a long winded way of saying that there aren’t strong ecological reasons to object to a hind season running from 1 Oct to 31 March.

Which is why the SGA went with stalker mental health.

Thanks. BASC's recommendation in its consultation response last year was for the red hind open season in Scotland to be changed to Nov 1 to March 31 inclusive. Last year the Scottish Government proposal was that the open season for red hinds should be changed to Oct 1 to March 30 inclusive. The outcome is the status quo for current open season for red hind to be Oct 21 to Feb 15 inclusive and deer managers will still have as a last resort, the option to follow best practice out of season shooting through authorisation by NatureScot.

 

[Mungo]

Thanks. BASC's recommendation in its consultation response last year was for the red hind open season in Scotland to be changed to Nov 1 to March 31 inclusive. Last year the Scottish Government proposal was that the open season for red hinds should be changed to Oct 1 to March 30 inclusive. The outcome is the status quo for current open season for red hind to be Oct 21 to Feb 15 inclusive and deer managers will still have as a last resort, the option to follow best practice out of season shooting through authorisation by NatureScot.

Which makes me wonder whether you would actually have agreed with the Scottish government proposal if you’d understood the papers!

 

[Freeforester]

Thanks. The current open season for red hinds is Oct 21 to Feb 15 inclusive. Last year the Scottish Government proposal was that the open season for red hinds should be changed to Oct 1 to March 30 inclusive.

Managing deer for climate and nature: consultation

We are consulting on proposals to modernise the legislation which governs deer management in Scotland and ensure it is fit for purpose in the context of the biodiversity and climate crises, alongside a small number of proposals concerned with farmed and kept deer.

www.gov.scot

Is my understanding of this correct?

Got to wonder about the anonymity and of the inanity of the proposal in the first instance. The current legislation is adequate in terms of seasons for the majority of stakeholders, and there are provisions for the outliers in place. Cui buono?

Given the lack of substantial/robust evidence of any climate crisis let alone crises in Scotland quite apart from the rest of the country, and what we can already deduce from the present cycle of the Sun and its trend heading now toward reduced energetic activity and output for the next thirty years, there would appear to be a rather greater possibility of a shorter growing season, harsher and longer winter duration, poorer weather overall (all as happened the last time) and therefore a reduced likelihood of early calving continuing, which would suggest that the seasons are not necessarily wrong as they are.

So it is equally within the realms of possibility and with even greater probability that within the next 20-30 years, we will start to see far fewer births in early May and almost none beforehand; are we to ignore the presently known and understood science merely upon the questionable and unsubstantiated assertions - the say-so of some anonymous political dubiety? Is this a responsible way to govern?

Space Weather Impacts On Climate | NOAA / NWS Space Weather Prediction Center

www.swpc.noaa.gov

See the graph on top of page, note the downward trend in solar cycle activity; read the last paragraph at bottom of the page; consider the similarities in the trend with that of the Maunder minimum, take the politics of the IPCC with the rest, and check out what the Sun is doing and will be doing as predicted and calculated here:



A little historical background: The Thames Frost Fairs in London

 

[Mickeydredd]

The out of season for hinds that can be got, will probably asked for by contractors. Unfortunately they are just slaughtermen and not what I would clasify as a stalker! J

That's why I said "stalkers/cullers". There will however be no differentiation between the two in legislation if it has been determined that human (not recreational or professional - bear in mind that the SGA's angle was from a professional basis) mental health is impacted by culling hinds after 15th February.

There may be trouble ahead......

 

[gelert]

Which makes me wonder whether you would actually have agreed with the Scottish government proposal if you’d understood the papers!

Interestingly the BDS did a full 180 turn.


2023 Prior to consultation
However, amidst these discussions, it’s noteworthy to revisit the British Deer Society’s position on recent proposals, particularly regarding the extension of the female deer season until March 31st. Our support for this extension, in line with practices in other parts of the UK, reflects our commitment to welfare considerations and harmonization across regions.

Jan 2025
We are delighted with the Scottish Government’s decision, announced in response to Question S6W-34323, regarding potential changes to the close season for female deer.

*

www.parliament.scot

After consulting with stakeholders, the Government has concluded that cull levels required to meet climate and nature objectives can be achieved within the existing close seasons. This decision also recognises the potential distress to stalkers from routinely shooting heavily pregnant female deer, ensuring a balanced approach to deer management.

We welcome this thoughtful decision and the continued option for NatureScot authorisations where necessary, promoting both effective management and welfare considerations.

 

[Tikka 270]

I'm a tad confused, which tbf isn't really an isolated incident!

If the Scottish Government have decreed that shooting female Red deer up to the end of March is a mental health issue for the stalker/culler then how can they possibly now offer an OOS licence to do so? Surely following their ruling we will see a challenge to the OOS licence, and tbh I cannot see how such a challenge would fail as the Scottish Government has now set a clear precedent/ruling.

They've always offered OOS, shoot females from first of Oct to end of march with it.
The government want more deer shot in Scotland, I think folk on here are getting a little bit excited now with talk of it being an own goal and suddenly they are going to possibly remove the chance of getting OOS and the possibility of the public & or police scotland beginning to question if we should all have guns ... Let's not be silly

 

[GlennUK]

They've always offered OOS, shoot females from first of Oct to end of march with it.
The government want more deer shot in Scotland, I think folk on here are getting a little bit excited now with talk of it being an own goal and suddenly they are going to possibly remove the chance of getting OOS and the possibility of the public & or police scotland beginning to question if we should all have guns ... Let's not be silly

When it comes to politics, and 'silly' I wouldn't bet much against 'silly' turning into reality

 

[Tikka 270]

When it comes to politics, and 'silly' I wouldn't bet much against 'silly' turning into reality

The governments obsession with reduction of deer numbers in Scotland would not allow it

 

[GlennUK]

The governments obsession with reduction of deer numbers in Scotland would not allow it

You may be right, however, reading many of the well informed posts on this thread in relation to the welfare of the deer, it appears from here, that there are good arguments based on the welfare of the deer, without reference to individual shooters mental well being.

The argument has been raised, and whilst your faith in 'the government' is laudable, PETA (and similar organisations) for example, are likely to seize on any arguments they can to reduce shooting in all its forms, by whatever means they can.

 

[VSS]

When it comes to politics, and 'silly' I wouldn't bet much against 'silly' turning into reality

The governments obsession with reduction of deer numbers in Scotland would not allow it

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/74/10/695/7754873

 

[Tikka 270]

You may be right, however, reading many of the well informed posts on this thread in relation to the welfare of the deer, it appears from here, that there are good arguments based on the welfare of the deer, without reference to individual shooters mental well being.

The argument has been raised, and whilst your faith in 'the government' is laudable, PETA (and similar organisations) for example, are likely to seize on any arguments they can to reduce shooting in all its forms, by whatever means they can.

We have to face facts that shooting for pleasure (game shooting first of all) is on the way out, managing deer however will still be accepted(just don't tell anyone you actually enjoy doing it). Regardless of fancy ideas of contraception etc, that doesn't reduce deer damage to crops and forestry ( deer remaining undisturbed in areas for as long as they wish), RTCS and the out cry when old dead/starving deer are lying at roadsides spoiling tourists nice photos and would then be a huge loss of employment in Scotland

 

[Mickeydredd]

They've always offered OOS, shoot females from first of Oct to end of march with it.
The government want more deer shot in Scotland, I think folk on here are getting a little bit excited now with talk of it being an own goal and suddenly they are going to possibly remove the chance of getting OOS and the possibility of the public & or police scotland beginning to question if we should all have guns ... Let's not be silly

Indeed they have, however you now have a documented government statement that shooting pregnant hinds after 15th February has strong negative mental health issues for seasoned professional deer “killers”.
If I were an anti so-minded to challenge the current OOS legislation then I would have a very strong case that the Scottish government would struggle to deny, regardless of a desire to reduce deer numbers. They would simply be challenged to do so within current seasons, as again the SGA have stated should be possible.

Nobody is being silly.

 

[Tikka 270]

Indeed they have, however you now have a documented government statement that shooting pregnant hinds after 15th February has strong negative mental health issues for seasoned professional deer “killers”.
If I were an anti so-minded to challenge the current OOS legislation then I would have a very strong case that the Scottish government would struggle to deny, regardless of a desire to reduce deer numbers. They would simply be challenged to do so within current seasons, as again the SGA have stated should be possible.

Nobody is being silly.

So the last 30 years of hundreds of people applying and getting OOS and suffering no ill effects from carrying out OOS work stands for nothing?
There's not a hope in hell that they will allow OOS permission to be removed

 

[Mungo]

So the last 30 years of hundreds of people applying and getting OOS and suffering no ill effects from carrying out OOS work stands for nothing?
There's not a hope in hell that they will allow OOS permission to be removed

Ah - so you admit the SGAs assertion that there were mental health effects of late culling was pure nonsense?

 

[Tikka 270]

Ah - so you admit the SGAs assertion that there were mental health effects of late culling was pure nonsense?

I'd have to say it's nonsense as I've been shooting OOS for 21 years and suffered no ill effects