Mandatory training will shut out stalkers when Scotland needs them most

[Dan Newcombe]

Dan we have 2500 trained Deer managers hobby guys w3eekend worriers call them what you like. They shoot on average 3 female deer a year that is a grand total of 7500 deer that no one else can get to. We have 14.800 none trained fac holder who shoot the same on ground that no one else can get to. a grand total of 44,400 . Now if you think these little guys don't matter think again. This is about collecting data. Nothing to do with meat Hygiene deer welfare or any other excuse NS add in to the mix.

And what’s to stop the large proportion of those 14800 getting their DSC?

Based on the survey that was done on here a while ago there are a lot of those certificate holders who shoot a lot less than 3 deer a year and what’s to stop someone qualified taking over that same ground and either shooting 3 a year (which is absolutely stunningly low) or more, they would struggle to shoot less.

Out of interst David. What qualifications do you hold?

 

[VSS]

So there is no EU influence here?

No, I don't think so.

(Historically though, our association with the EU has been in stalkers' favour with regard to the processing and selling of venison by individual hunters).

 

[Dunwaters]

That's just a pipe dream.

It certainly is for as long as you reject the concept of a nationally recognised qualification.
Supposing that you were in charge of national deer management policy, where would you start?

 

[Apthorpe]

It certainly is for as long as you reject the concept of a nationally recognised qualification.
Supposing that you were in charge of national deer management policy, where would you start?

By abolishing the policy and the position, then resigning. It is not for the state to assume ownership over wildlife.

 

[Dunwaters]

No, I don't think so.

(Historically though, our association with the EU has been in stalkers' favour with regard to the processing and selling of venison by individual hunters).

You are the last country in the western world to have no mandatory qualification for deer hunting. Your deer population is out of control.
Do you really believe that everyone else is wrong?

 

[Apthorpe]

You are the last country in the western world to have no mandatory qualification for deer hunting

This is untrue.

. Your deer population is out of control.

This is not known with any reliable degree of confidence.

Do you really believe that everyone else is wrong?

No. I just believe thar because you're operating from a false premise and an unknown premise, that it is fairly probable that you might be wrong.

 

[Apthorpe]

It certainly is for as long as you reject the concept of a nationally recognised qualification.
Supposing that you were in charge of national deer management policy, where would you start?

To re-answer this question in the spirit you intended, I cannot seriously imagine for a second that a person in charge of public land is ever going to be persuaded that it is a safe idea to have individuals out stalking the land which is shared access with everyone. Nor do I think it remotely likely that they'd even consider it desirable given the predominant political consensus within the bureaucracy. It would be an absolute career ender.

 

[Freeforester]

If this was the same event, it was a few years back now. At a guess 8 to 9 years ago.
I well remember it, as I was delivering carcasses to Ardgay game at the time, and had to wait as a veterinary inspection was taking place on the premises. I spoke to the owners son as to why they had been inspected so many times in the month I was up there.
He told me it was because some undercooked burgers had been produced in a hotel/Restaurant and that 6 people had been put in Raigmore hospital with ecoli.

I am all for more training and hygiene being kept at a high level, but compulsory training is the thin end of the wedge for me. It appears in Scotland they are moving ever closer to deer culling only being carried out by licenced people. We already have the fit and competent register, although I have never been asked to prove that I am on it.
Deer stalking in Scotland cannot afford to loose recreational and over seas stalkers. The impact on estates and small communities financially would be disastrous in my opinion.

Worst carcass (by some margin) I was ever offered was from a local DSC L2 AW/instructor; worst contaminated carcass came through the local FCS larder, complete with fecal matter within the gap between the shoulder and shot hole (chest/shoulder shot), and attendant SQWV tag attached. When I drew the matter to the attention of the ranger manager and head manager, neither could explain how the pellets got there, I had to explain that to them, along with the implications for the subsequent cuts by the same knife that had obviously cut through the alimentary canal, thereby letting the contents spill down inside the carcass, some of which becoming lodged by dropping through the shot hole on the inside of the chest.

Small wonder E. coli etc can be passed on, the fully trained, full time ranger’s signature was on the SQWV and FCS tag. So much for training.

 

[Happy stalker]

Small wonder E. coli etc can be passed on, the fully trained, full time ranger’s signature was on the SQWV and FCS tag. So much for training

Yip, I have seen some awfully presented carcasses, training if needed coupled with monitoring is the answer, if standards aren’t kept then the offenders should no longer be allowed to larder carcasses destined to go into the food chain.

 

[VSS]

You are the last country in the western world to have no mandatory qualification for deer hunting. Your deer population is out of control.
Do you really believe that everyone else is wrong?

I think I've made it quite clear that I'm in favour of raising standards through training.
It's just that I'd like to see it industry lead rather than government driven.

 

[David Barker]

And what’s to stop the large proportion of those 14800 getting their DSC?

Based on the survey that was done on here a while ago there are a lot of those certificate holders who shoot a lot less than 3 deer a year and what’s to stop someone qualified taking over that same ground and either shooting 3 a year (which is absolutely stunningly low) or more, they would struggle to shoot less.

Out of interst David. What qualifications do you hold?

Dan i have more certs than most my last certs were in 2009 they were D9 and D11. That matters not its about choice and farmers landowners will not let other on. The reason they have the ground will normally not be the deer its everything else they shoot. The ones you wish to make illegal will still do it. why do they sit there Certs its a choice or it my be fear of failure. Remember 1 in 5 around Glasgow are illiterate but does not mean they cannot cull deer effectively.

 

[wildfowler.250]

Folks are they talking about DSC 1 or 2 as well? What about the other courses available? I would imagine most places like the states or countries in Europe have one government based course or exam? I’m not convinced it’s helpful that we have several to pick through.

I do think if there was government ground and the option of ‘public land’ stalking. Be it ballot or otherwise, there would be a massive update in these courses to get on board.

 

[David Barker]

Folks are they talking about DSC 1 or 2 as well? What about the other courses available? I would imagine most places like the states or countries in Europe have one government based course or exam? I’m not convinced it’s helpful that we have several to pick through.

I do think if there was government ground and the option of ‘public land’ stalking. Be it ballot or otherwise, there would be a massive update in these courses to get on board.

That's what happened the industry put out lots of leases to help w3ith the uptake of the DSC Then soon as the uptake slow3ed dow3n and every one was on board they pulled the leases and used the chosen few to become contractor an stuck to fingers up at the rest.

 

[luca$]

I’m new to shooting and even newer to deer stalking, I just completed my dsc1 yesterday so I thought I’d share my thoughts, I’m also a bit younger than the majority here (I assume at 27)

I work in construction and have seen a massive increase in qualifications needed to be able to work on big sites and my thoughts are, it’s needed.

There’s too many people that have been doing it for for a long time that scoff at the idea of being trained or needing training, but it sets a baseline, it’s also an insurance for people that do not know your skill levels, you can have people like me that haven’t ever shot a deer with a dsc1 and people with nothing that have shot thousands, the difference being is I’m now up to date with “the proper way of doing things” from the laws to hygiene.

There were two chaps 40+ that were doing it and they both said they learned a lot that they had never known.

Assessment days are £120 ish quid but I can guarantee that the majority of people, without trying would fail it as it’s so specific

I thought it was funny seeing this as I’ve had many conversations with people regarding a similar push for training in construction

 

[Sheamus]

I’m new to shooting and even newer to deer stalking, I just completed my dsc1 yesterday so I thought I’d share my thoughts, I’m also a bit younger than the majority here (I assume at 27)

I work in construction and have seen a massive increase in qualifications needed to be able to work on big sites and my thoughts are, it’s needed.

There’s too many people that have been doing it for for a long time that scoff at the idea of being trained or needing training, but it sets a baseline, it’s also an insurance for people that do not know your skill levels, you can have people like me that haven’t ever shot a deer with a dsc1 and people with nothing that have shot thousands, the difference being is I’m now up to date with “the proper way of doing things” from the laws to hygiene.

There were two chaps 40+ that were doing it and they both said they learned a lot that they had never known.

Assessment days are £120 ish quid but I can guarantee that the majority of people, without trying would fail it as it’s so specific

I thought it was funny seeing this as I’ve had many conversations with people regarding a similar push for training in construction

I don't know if this is relevant to anything that's already been written here?
But how come i see guys with CSCS Green cards laying bricks?
Or how come I know a guy with a DSC2 portfolio that has only ever gralloched a one Deer?

 

[Dan Newcombe]

Dan i have more certs than most my last certs were in 2009 they were D9 and D11. That matters not its about choice and farmers landowners will not let other on. The reason they have the ground will normally not be the deer its everything else they shoot. The ones you wish to make illegal will still do it. why do they sit there Certs its a choice or it my be fear of failure. Remember 1 in 5 around Glasgow are illiterate but does not mean they cannot cull deer effectively.

I’m not buying that land owners will refuse to let anyone else on the ground in the event that the current person is no longer allowed to operate and refuses to undertake the (very easy) training that would allow them to continue.

1 in 5 around Glasgow are illiterate perhaps but I hazard those are not generally speaking stalkers that are doing much and they managed to fill in an application for a firearm fine enough.

I agree with VSS that industry led would be preferable but it seems that the industry isn’t leading very far.

Everyone can argue that they have seen rubbish from very qualified people but we have to start somewhere.

 

[luca$]

I don't know if this is relevant to anything that's already been written here?
But how come i see guys with CSCS Green cards laying bricks?
Or how come I know a guy with a DSC2 portfolio that has only ever gralloched a one Deer?

Personally, the lads with no tickets tend to have different personalities compared with the lads that want a qualification behind them.
You absolutely get people that are on top of the trade and are the top 1% in what they do with no papers to show that but how does anyone know their skill level if they haven’t even completed the most basic of qualifications?

 

[Rasputin]

If training is to become mandatory it should be free imho. Shooting is expensive and hard enough as it is.if it were I’m sure adoption and acceptance would be higher.

Still amazes me that people are still equating venison and the food chain as saving field sports and making it accepted by the masses in this country .

Non toxic shot, game hygiene, community larded etc non of it will make one iota of difference when the inevitably axe falls.

 

[Happy stalker]

There is now doubt that in certain areas of Scotland there is a high deer population and in others the numbers are managed well, the issue is that for years private forestry company leases have been given to folk with the deeper pockets ££££££ and that live miles away from the grounds and only visiting during the rut with far fewer visits at the hinds which is the important time to control deer numbers this has been happening for decades and deer numbers in some areas are out of control because of this, there is changes happening forestry companies are now giving deer management leases to local stalkers and folk who can attend on a more regular basis and more emphasis on culling females, so if you live to far from a ground to make a real difference then am afraid it doesn’t matter how many qualifications you have you just not going to get it. Simple as that!

 

[Tim.243]

I’m new to shooting and even newer to deer stalking, I just completed my dsc1 yesterday so I thought I’d share my thoughts, I’m also a bit younger than the majority here (I assume at 27)

I work in construction and have seen a massive increase in qualifications needed to be able to work on big sites and my thoughts are, it’s needed.

There’s too many people that have been doing it for for a long time that scoff at the idea of being trained or needing training, but it sets a baseline, it’s also an insurance for people that do not know your skill levels, you can have people like me that haven’t ever shot a deer with a dsc1 and people with nothing that have shot thousands, the difference being is I’m now up to date with “the proper way of doing things” from the laws to hygiene.

There were two chaps 40+ that were doing it and they both said they learned a lot that they had never known.

Assessment days are £120 ish quid but I can guarantee that the majority of people, without trying would fail it as it’s so specific

I thought it was funny seeing this as I’ve had many conversations with people regarding a similar push for training in construction

I worked some of my school holidays mid 70's with my Dad on site running out the muck with a small trowel he cut down for me, being left handed I used to run out the gear in front of him.
During the years at weekends he taught me how to beat lead bench a drain cut out and fit glass it then putty the glass in,
dig footings drains. The houses he built still stand today as I go past them from time to time. No qualifications just passed down by a master builder to Dad.
There are no qualification's for shooting pigeons ferreting with purse/longnets (digging down 5ft) to get your laid up ferret back, setting a string of decoys on a mother line or calling foxes!
Learn on the small stuff and that will make working on the larger beasts much easier.