Mandatory training will shut out stalkers when Scotland needs them most

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Deer into the foodchain? I heard today that the neighbouring Forestry Scotland larder can not get rid of any carcasses so are just putting them in a skip.

It is not deer management, it is deer eradication and extinction.

You "heard"

 

[sauer]

Dumping them in Skip or leaving on the hill ?.....
Yet those of with certification and food certs eho approved etc ...I have market but not the ground or beasts to supply demand and my own families consumption
Feast or famine depending who ypu are or who you know?

I'm fortunate I had time and cash to do courses and qualify etc .... I see both sides
Canna do bugger all in life without a bit of paper ..we lucky we haven't been made to qualify / competence for years ...Europe does it...
But I see the point of some of previous generation of many experiences so why should they need to prove it ?
Contractors or employed staff may get costs back ... many hobbyists won't.....is that fair ?
I dunnoe tbh

 

[David Barker]

I’m very hopeful that the sheer weight of nonsense, coupled with the lack of resourcing, will bring this crashing down.

It’s a relic of the Bute House agreement with the Greens, and I get the sense that the SNP and NatureScot are increasingly looking for a face saving way to drop it.

There is some theorising that the recent Section 8 is a strategic attempt by NatureScot to demonstrate 3 things: (a) that necessary legislation exists; (b) that any attempt to impose state mandated culls will be prohibitively expensive because of legal action; and (c) there is widespread and meaningful public opposition to it.

I think you are correct and it has not went unnoticed that there have been no push on the pour performing local authority,s as that w3ould create a situation for a judicial review. The central belt councils have said don't even look this way our ground is in a pour state but you will not come on it with gun,s

 

[David Barker]

There are many deer in the FLS skips all deemed not fit for human consumption. Mainly because Highland game have decided to refuse so much of what is presented to them and not only that charge for its destruction. HG Hold all the ACES. We are told one of the reasons for mandatory testing is meat hygiene and venison presentation. That said we have only had one scare in 20 years and that was at highland game (AGHE) Total con. I say let the councils decide and keep the VD Licence get rid of it and every one will need to reach AGHE standards and that means vets and there costs what a sad day that will be.

 

[Bowland blades]

Yet BASC and their likes have spent all those years pushing for more and more training and certificates ! What did people think was going to happen over time ?

 

[sauer]

There are many deer in the FLS skips all deemed not fit for human consumption. Mainly because Highland game have decided to refuse so much of what is presented to them and not only that charge for its destruction. HG Hold all the ACES. We are told one of the reasons for mandatory testing is meat hygiene and venison presentation. That said we have only had one scare in 20 years and that was at highland game (AGHE) Total con. I say let the councils decide and keep the VD Licence get rid of it and every one will need to reach AGHE standards and that means vets and there costs what a sad day that will be.

That scare was venison meatballs . undercooked by customer

The vdl is nothing but a piece of paper you pay for to legally trade hunters exemption product if your not an AGHE
It does nothing ...it's like the old game dealers ticket you would buy at post office ...
It's the EHO approval
Record keeping
Cleanliness
Food hygiene training
Allergen training etc
That makes the difference
HG wants spotless copper shot carcasses
You shot a beast with a bullet your gonna get some damage
But certainly many could improve on grslloching and lardering and their transport habits etc

Paul

 

[yellow belly]

Deer into the foodchain? I heard today that the neighbouring Forestry Scotland larder can not get rid of any carcasses so are just putting them in a skip.

It is not deer management, it is deer eradication and extinction.

Don't be shy, what area is this??

 

[David Barker]

That scare was venison meatballs . undercooked by customer

The vdl is nothing but a piece of paper you pay for to legally trade hunters exemption product if your not an AGHE
It does nothing ...it's like the old game dealers ticket you would buy at post office ...
It's the EHO approval
Record keeping
Cleanliness
Food hygiene training
Allergen training etc
That makes the difference
HG wants spotless copper shot carcasses
You shot a beast with a bullet your gonna get some damage
But certainly many could improve on grslloching and lardering and their transport habits etc

Paul

It was not under cooked food it was E.coli in burgers and not a full batch . It was put down to a member of staff or similar when traced back from the ones that reported being ill. Fact remains we the stalker did nothing wrong in the process and coming down on us is like a criminal using a gun and saying its our fault because we have guns as well.

 

[Brittany boy]

So I shoot 8-12 roe a year for family and friends at no cost, have done for 30 years and have no certification. I have a friend who shoots hundreds of deer a year and has all the bits of paper to boot. The way the beasts are treated from the time they are shot to them going into the food chain leaves more than a lot to be desired. I was gifted one which still had bits of internals within the body cavity including droppings from a really poor gralloch. When I shoot a deer I take a pride in the gralloch before it goes in the roe sack not dragged for miles by the head allowing vegetation and mud into the cavity, left in the back of a car to stay warm while the next beast is shot. I’m one deer and head for home. Just because these people have a qualification does not mean that they are putting better quality venison into the food chain, in some cases far from it. Why should I be penalised or do I not shoot enough deer to be considered a stalker or deer manager. If I needed to sell venison or carcasses I may consider taking a course and getting a certificate but I would rather enjoy my stalking the way I always have.

 

[Heym SR20]

Don't be shy, what area is this??

Scottish Borders

 

[VSS]

So I shoot 8-12 roe a year for family and friends at no cost, have done for 30 years and have no certification. I have a friend who shoots hundreds of deer a year and has all the bits of paper to boot. The way the beasts are treated from the time they are shot to them going into the food chain leaves more than a lot to be desired. I was gifted one which still had bits of internals within the body cavity including droppings from a really poor gralloch. When I shoot a deer I take a pride in the gralloch before it goes in the roe sack not dragged for miles by the head allowing vegetation and mud into the cavity, left in the back of a car to stay warm while the next beast is shot. I’m one deer and head for home. Just because these people have a qualification does not mean that they are putting better quality venison into the food chain, in some cases far from it. Why should I be penalised or do I not shoot enough deer to be considered a stalker or deer manager. If I needed to sell venison or carcasses I may consider taking a course and getting a certificate but I would rather enjoy my stalking the way I always have.

Talk to him about it, not us.
Tell him to up his game.

 

[Brittany boy]

Have done but falls on deaf ears, it’s a cash thing for him, he has private customers paying about £60 a beast the last I spoke to him, they don’t know any better and think they are getting a good deal. My point was this new legislation will affect a large number of stalkers in a similar situation to myself who have no interest in large numbers or making a profit from their stalking.

 

[VSS]

Have done but falls on deaf ears, it’s a cash thing for him, he has private customers paying about £60 a beast the last I spoke to him, they don’t know any better and think they are getting a good deal. My point was this new legislation will affect a large number of stalkers in a similar situation to myself who have no interest in large numbers or making a profit from their stalking.

Well it's thanks to people like your friend that we get tighter legislation, so I think you should be pretty blunt with him.
If his carcass presentation is crap, tell him its crap. Don't beat about the bush by being polite.

 

[Brittany boy]

Yeh you can tell people what you think but they don’t have to pay attention and a lot of people think that a bit of paper makes their way right. Who police’s carcasses going into the food chain that don’t sell through a game dealer and how many people have a similar arrangement ? It makes a nonsense of the certification. I’m all for new stalkers having to prove their ability to shoot straight and gralloch properly, I’ve taken an accredited witness on a free stalk, he shot the beast and I gralloched it while he assessed me, and apart from not being able to name the glands in the lower jaw I was spot on with all the checks. Just because you can pass a test doesn’t mean you have to maintain the same standards afterwards.

 

[Simon NZ]

Anyone can make a stuff up, there was a story here in NZ Stewart Isaland where a cop shot his son. I know guys who walked past the crime scene tape and said it was an open shot. Probably a low light causing missidentification.
My son walked into my hunting area for the morning, low light , a few twigs cracking but not moving like a deer and wearing the orange. Now at that time under canopy its not glowing and unless you know your deer colours properly for some it could be a red, as in red deer or Sika early autumn or as in that island a summer Whitetail.
You aren't going to learn this in a short block course. Its a life experience thing but at the most vital time . Its in these hours most get shot.
Off course non of this ever gets really taught by the courses. It'll be about some other drama of little consequence.
Recently the powers that be appoved heat scopes here, which only ID bits of deer through the scrub or human. The outcome here is certain. Its the same senario that cause spotligthing and night scopes on public land to get banned. Not proper ID and for sure some desperate will shoot.
Desperate also isn't going to get controlled by a block course.
No factor of real risk is mitigated. In fact as per the scopes the powers will be accessories.
Father and son over years is the best way to instill habit and experience however families these days don't count for much by the powers instead have to have the certificate they provide.
Its merely a legal precondition , another license.

 

[Bowland blades]

Anyone can make a stuff up, there was a story here in NZ Stewart Isaland where a cop shot his son. I know guys who walked past the crime scene tape and said it was an open shot. Probably a low light causing missidentification.
My son walked into my hunting area for the morning, low light , a few twigs cracking but not moving like a deer and wearing the orange. Now at that time under canopy its not glowing and unless you know your deer colours properly for some it could be a red, as in red deer or Sika early autumn or as in that island a summer Whitetail.
You aren't going to learn this in a short block course. Its a life experience thing but at the most vital time . Its in these hours most get shot.
Off course non of this ever gets really taught by the courses. It'll be about some other drama of little consequence.
Recently the powers that be appoved heat scopes here, which only ID bits of deer through the scrub or human. The outcome here is certain. Its the same senario that cause spotligthing and night scopes on public land to get banned. Not proper ID and for sure some desperate will shoot.
Desperate also isn't going to get controlled by a block course.
No factor of real risk is mitigated. In fact as per the scopes the powers will be accessories.
Father and son over years is the best way to instill habit and experience however families these days don't count for much by the powers instead have to have the certificate they provide.
Its merely a legal precondition , another license.

I read a whole load of accident reports from the NZ years ago . It was horrific some of the practices used and the people killed and injured by stalkers . but i beleave its improved now

 

[Simon NZ]

Ones that have hunted for years have also shot someone, its the bush, only seen a bit is the usual story. There has been thousands of deer shot on the evidence of seen a leg. Spotlighting was the most common.
I think this roar only one. May have been dark at the time not fully sure of the details.

 

[sauer]

It was not under cooked food it was E.coli in burgers and not a full batch . It was put down to a member of staff or similar when traced back from the ones that reported being ill. Fact remains we the stalker did nothing wrong in the process and coming down on us is like a criminal using a gun and saying its our fault because we have guns as well.

ok i was told at a lantra small & large game hygiene course it was meatballs ...but still a minced product and if cooked to FSA guidelines it would could have cooked out or killed the ecoli .

look at chicken ... 80% on supermarket shelfs contains campylobacter ( campy ) ... many never even heard of it never mind know it puts over 2000 folk in uk in hospital but the public still need to take responsibility for lot of their actions....

many of us are good in this game but ..i seen too many folk not sticking to basics and dirty carcasses and not getting cooled down .... or csvity been full of green and leafs and twigs etc .... and if youve had food poisoning ...aye proper case .... then you know and take care .

too many folk look art a carcass and see ££££££ .... and thats fine.... but if you want ££££ and then treat it with utmost and bottom line cover your ar5e ...

good and bad in every demographic ... but seen too many lads say "that be fine" .... and its going to feed someone with lot of "potential"...


common sense isnt so common and you canna teach it

Paul

 

[Simon NZ]

Meat hunters in NZ used to get good money to send it to Germany. Most who ate it must have died according to modern regulation. That was the kick for modern deer farming.

 

[Bo Diddley]

Call me old-fashioned but isn’t this yet another restriction on our beloved sport - turkeys voting for you know what and at a time when shooting is already under serious threat?
I am all for learning especially through a mentor but this just makes me wonder how anyone ever managed to learn our craft and hone their marksmanship skills before all of this “skooling” came along…

Couldn't agree more Foxy... A bit like needing a degree to join the police force... that just encourages a force full of Chiefs and not enough Warriors..