Burying our heads in the sand.

[1066kieran]

There is a certain percentage of the shooting community that appear to want to bury their heads in the sand and are totally opposed to training believing that experience is everything and training means nothing. Which is all well and good if the experience has been gained while operating in a safe manner but experience proves "nothing" as the countless pensioners prove that drive the wrong way down motorways and other major routes.
It is inevitable that in the near future proof of training will be required not only to obtain leases but also to obtain your FAC.
FC have already moved the date twice making it a requirement to be DSC2 registered to stalk on their land once this is in force everyone else will follow suit.
Its a simple matter of litigation and having a paper trail to follow if things go smelly.
Not only that surely its better that we regulate ourselves and bring ourselves into the 21century rather than be dragged kicking and screaming by legislation.
So come on guys pull your heads out of their respective holes and get with the programme.
As someone else once said "those that are not with us are against us"

 

[Erik Hamburger]

Can not agree more with you - as a newby I followed the training route, for the simple reason that aged 50+ I don't have sufficient time left to get the '30+ years of deer-management experience' some of the more established stalkers in my area have.
Typically, very large amounts of land in The Cotswolds are 'managed' (i.e. controlled or maybe I should say 'blocked') by deer stalkers who are often well into their sixties and some don't have the fitness and mobility required to climb over a gate or walk up a hill, but will not give up their lease or permission so a younger generation can move in to deal with increasingly desperate landowners driven up the wall by the increasing deer population.

These older and established stalkers with their 30+ year of experience are in many cases very dismissive of any training or qualifications and actively ridicule and dismiss any 'new' stalker with the DSC1 or DSC2 or other qualification as they feel vastly superior. While sitting at home, with their high-seats falling apart, their landowner complaining they haven't seen the stalker for 5 years, and the deer (in particular Fallow) having free rain across boundaries, as these experienced stalkers will not share information and work together with neighbouring stalkers for fear of their permission being nicked.

 

[Eyefor]

There is a certain percentage of the shooting community that appear to want to bury their heads in the sand and.......not agree with my opinion .

So come on guys pull your heads out of their respective holes and get with the programme....also available, Global Warming, The End is Nigh and "Why is my glass half full?

As someone else once said "those that are not with us are against us" JC, Luke 9:50

Having a bad day?

 

[Pine Marten]

As someone else once said "those that are not with us are against us"

That's not really true. It's more that "those who are not with us can't really be bothered"...

 

[CWMMAN3738]

We don't have to like the inevitable but have to accept it! I think it's far better we regulate ourselves than have yet more legislation thrust upon us, so totally agree with you that is the way things are going and better to be in front than being dragged behind new legislation (which is inevitable IMHO) if we dont self regulate & BE SEEN TO, Into 21st century.

 

[Pine Marten]

I don't know about inevitability, but I'd say that if there is going to be mandatory training, then that should become a necessary and sufficient condition for an FAC. SO you do your training, and then you can buy whatever rifle you see fit with no further conditions. The terms of the discussion need to change from the current Heath Robinson setup to something integrated and coherent.

 

[1066kieran]

No having a brilliant day just been confirmed I've not got cancer just started seeing a lovely young lady and got two months work ahead of me.
I was just making an observation about human nature and they way things are heading.

 

[Eyefor]

No having a brilliant day just been confirmed I've not got cancer just started seeing a lovely young lady and got two months work ahead of me.
I was just making an observation about human nature and they way things are heading.

Excellent.

​My apologies if I misread the tone.

 

[1066kieran]

You can only imagine how miserable I am on a bad day lol

 

[perdix]

Just going to jump in now and get the chance to use this before anyone else does ................................

 

[Tackleberry270]

For many older Stalkers I think it is just pride or arrogance. If all of your experience has been gained from either being self taught or mentored by one or two stalkers that learned the same way then unless you are an academic it is likely you have gaps in your knowledge that could be filled with some training. Those that are anti loose out on the benefits of organisations that pool their knowledge and create a curriculum that can be taught by a skilled trainer.

No matter who you are how how much experience you have you can always learn something. There are some who don't subscribe to this. Also would want to admit they have been using methods that fall below a reasonable standard of practice for 30 or 40 years?

 

[dlz90]

Just going to jump in now and get the chance to use this before anyone else does ................................

​There's plenty there for everybody don't be so greedy................

 

[wivenhoe65]

There is a certain percentage of the shooting community that appear to want to bury their heads in the sand and are totally opposed to training believing that experience is everything and training means nothing. Which is all well and good if the experience has been gained while operating in a safe manner but experience proves "nothing" as the countless pensioners prove that drive the wrong way down motorways and other major routes.
It is inevitable that in the near future proof of training will be required not only to obtain leases but also to obtain your FAC.
FC have already moved the date twice making it a requirement to be DSC2 registered to stalk on their land once this is in force everyone else will follow suit.
Its a simple matter of litigation and having a paper trail to follow if things go smelly.
Not only that surely its better that we regulate ourselves and bring ourselves into the 21century rather than be dragged kicking and screaming by legislation.
So come on guys pull your heads out of their respective holes and get with the programme.
As someone else once said "those that are not with us are against us"

I think training is a good idea in general , what i am totally against is compulsory training and legislation that makes it compulsory .
The problem with legislation / compulsory training is it inevitably arrives at the 'one size fits all' conclusion , and no doubt will be drafted by people with little understanding of what they are legislating on .
Also i dread a consultation with input from so called experts / authorities that have their own agendas and preconceived ideas about the right / wrong way to do things - the anti's will have their say as well (and their agenda will be to make access to shooting as difficult and painfull as possible ), remember the changes to minimum calibres for example , BDS input was that .22cf was not suitable to shoot Roe , and despite all the evidence to the contrary ie from Scotland we ended up with min' .243 for Roe (thank you BDS for that you bunch of ......)
What we have at the moment is far from ideal ,but considering the very low level of serious accidents / incidents it works.
So be careful what you wish for ,i for one do not wish to see Pandora's box opened .
ps.For pensioners driving the wrong way down the motorway join the BDS .

 

[Double four]

No having a brilliant day just been confirmed I've not got cancer just started seeing a lovely young lady and got two months work ahead of me.
I was just making an observation about human nature and they way things are heading.

Good news about the cancer fella

 

[vizslamad]

Can not agree more with you - as a newby I followed the training route, for the simple reason that aged 50+ I don't have sufficient time left to get the '30+ years of deer-management experience' some of the more established stalkers in my area have.
Typically, very large amounts of land in The Cotswolds are 'managed' (i.e. controlled or maybe I should say 'blocked') by deer stalkers who are often well into their sixties and some don't have the fitness and mobility required to climb over a gate or walk up a hill, but will not give up their lease or permission so a younger generation can move in to deal with increasingly desperate landowners driven up the wall by the increasing deer population.

These older and established stalkers with their 30+ year of experience are in many cases very dismissive of any training or qualifications and actively ridicule and dismiss any 'new' stalker with the DSC1 or DSC2 or other qualification as they feel vastly superior. While sitting at home, with their high-seats falling apart, their landowner complaining they haven't seen the stalker for 5 years, and the deer (in particular Fallow) having free rain across boundaries, as these experienced stalkers will not share information and work together with neighbouring stalkers for fear of their permission being nicked.

Oh bugger I am 61, my only saving grace is that I have L1 and L2 and can still climb over gates.Lets be careful out there, I think that we have a few others within this very very dubious age bracket on the site that may take offence. Incidently I do believe that people benifit from DS1 and 2 but i certainly would not knock people for not having it.

 

[jimbo1984]

That's not really true. It's more that "those who are not with us can't really be bothered"...

Or maybe don't like being told that thier experiance counts for nothing if not accompanied by a piece of paper ......

 

[1066kieran]

Cheers. Bit of a bonus all things considered lol

regarding pensioners I was mearly making a point that experience does not always make you safe/good at what you are doing. Like wise just because someone is trained neither does that. However if someone is trained but doesn't operate to those levels then action could be taken against said person

 

[Pine Marten]

Or maybe don't like being told that thier experiance counts for nothing if not accompanied by a piece of paper ......

Also, yes. I was referring to this phenomenon in a wider sense though, not just regarding deerstalking. Admittedly that makes me off-topic.

 

[techman]

1066, Having a Bad Day? I Was brought up in 'The Old School' Safety was drummed into me from day one. If I transgressed the least that would have happened would have been a severe ticking off. and sent home for the rest of the day.
As things stand, I do not need to show ( the land owners,the game dealer or the police) a peice of Paper, that 1) I am safe 2) that I can hit a 4" circle at 100yds. or 3) that I can dress out a deer properly, beacuse I have been doing it for years.
When this does become compulsory, I will take up some other passtime.
As for burying my head in the sand- By all means go and get all the qualifications you want, but don't tell me what I should do.

 

[sikamalc]

First of all that's wonderful news about your recent result with cancer, like many I have lost some good friends through this terrible disease and at the moment have a dear friend who is nearing the end in a hospice, not an easy time for the family.

As for training......... well there are many without it. I always remember an old stalker I knew in Scotland who I shot my first Red Deer with some years back taking level 1. He was petrified, although there was very few who could teach him anything about Red Deer and their habits. However Fallow, CWD and Muntjac he had never seen one in the flesh and being questioned on these deer was part of his concern. Needless to say he passed, although he has never gone on to take Level 2 to my knowledge.

So where are we, well DMQ is here to stay, its not going away and it is for the better I think. With the amount of new people coming into the sport it is vital we have some defined bench mark qualifications to make sure people have some idea of what they are doing. I know taking and passing 1 and 2 does not make you an experienced stalker, only years of being in the field and dare I say it being with the right people will achieve that.

So if you want to remain in the game, get it done, it would not surprise me to find it being made compulsory one day, and the insurance companies also asking for it either god forbid I know.