level two with the BDS for £492 for two days.

[Labrat]

Have a look back and you will see the post bud it was interesting but I think the overwhelming jist of it was it won't do much good for deer stalking in a whole if people can just read a book then go and do level 2 in 2 days. I suppose it comes down to how strict the aw's will be in the park.

Yes, just reading the other thread now - I'm inclined to agree, however I suppose that its the way of the world, training is now an industry in itself, like you keep finding electricians and plumbers who it turns out have done a six week college course

 

[stratts]

I spotted this initiative on the BDS website yesterday when I was contemplating joining and at 1st thought it may be detremental to the level 2 qualification as I don't like any type of course that is a guaranteed pass. BUT, if you read through it properly you will only pass if you demonstrate all aspects correctly and your portfolio is as it should be. IF at any point throughout the 2 days the AW can see that you are not up to speed and capable of passing you will be informed there and then and it will be turned into a training exercise so you don't completely waste your money.

Now I passed my DSC1 last year in July and I thought that was hard enough and will be doing the level 2 in the future. I have been stalking on my own ground since July and only just managed to grass my 1st 2 deer and performed 2 grallochs that let's just say were not perfect by a long shot. I would not be able to got to Sussex, pay my fees and walk away with a level 2, yet I call myself a deerstalker if anyone asks what I hunt!!

I am new to stalking still and have a lot to learn but in my humble opinion anyone that thinks they can just roll up and pass the level 2 at the BDS location without a lot of stalking experience previously will be sorely mistaken!! And let's face it anyone who would want to fast track a L2 qualification are doing it for the wrong reasons and would be found out soon enough anyway!! (And probably be made to look rather daft too)

Stratts

 

[SussexFallow]

Too true Stratts . If anyone thinks that its a guaranteed pass they best think again. I know the AWs and they are at the top of the tree on park AND wild deer. The only guarantee is the deer are there.
Atb steve

 

[Paul at Fechan]

I think that while many strong and fair opinions have been put forward in terms of what DSC2 means to the individual, in terms of a qualification with set criteria there is nothing wrong with providing an assessment environment to the benefit of those with no or limited access to both productive ground and fair AW's. As has been said, the shooting of deer is a very small part of the DSC2.

The price though.... add on fuel, food, digs and extras and it's more like £600-700

 

[Klenchblaize]

The price though.... add on fuel, food, digs and extras and it's more like £600-700

Tips??

 

[Overlay]

Some peoples ideas that the Wadhurst L2 weekend will be easy, compared to the norm in reality to put up to undertake the portfolio is something else, it will be condensed and if you're experience, commitment and expertise is not up to scratch you won't pass the starting post, I certainly wouldn't think its an easy ride.

if your not ready you won't be signed off, it's not a test, it's a chance for a candidate to portray they are fit and competant for the job to another person who has done the L2 and more, then checked again via an assessor, by undertaking to that you have got to have had the WHOLE EXPERIENCE and adhere to the standards, there isn't no easy way, You can do it or you can't - no middle ground. The onus is on the candidate to prove they are what they say they are. - No failure. More training required

The candidate has to prove he or she is a competent all round hunter, no blagging or pussy footing around you will need to be 100% as you would be doing the same anywhere else.

The idea could benefit stalkers and AW / stalking businesses if the venture is a success as well, stalkers could use traditional methods ie AW's in the field of choice and or have a aw assessment prior to signing up to the Wadhurst to ensure they are ready, I can't see a downside providing the weekend is compliant to the DI and deer management guide lines in regards to enclosed areas, Ok perhaps enclosed deer of what ever acreage may be not most people's ideal setting, but if it s legal and compliant. It can only be better if you go through the experience bit and learning as you go get yourself lined up get an AW assessment stalk and based on that. Apply for the portfolio, that is a brilliant learning curve prior to the L2.


ATB

phil

 

[Dickie]

Pardon if I missed this earlier.
whats the difference to someone being lucky and going out on a weekend for 3 stalks with an AW and getting a deer on each stalk at £75 a stalk £225 and job done are they any less or more a stalker?
i think it's a bit like driving you start to learn once you pass the test, no 2 stalks the same (apart from at the moment WET) deer in different places, noisy game birds etc etc.
The big thing no matter where level 2 is done is the skill and integrity of the AW after all it's them who do the signing off.
Cheers
Dickie

 

[Deerstalkermark]

I'd be interested to know the number of deer in the 1000 acres. Part of DSC2 is demonstrating the skill of being able to locate deer. Certainly a lot less difficult if there are 200+ of them fenced in. They've gotta be somewhere and what's more you've got all day to find them!!
The other can of worms is, can other deer parks offer the same service, what is the minimum size a deer park can be and how's this going to be policed?
A defo devaluing of DSC2 to me.

 

[JabaliHunter]

Part of DSC2 is demonstrating the skill of being able to locate deer. [...] A defo devaluing of DSC2 to me.

Only 1 out of 27 tested performance criteria (PC 1.5) or 3.7% of the whole DSC 2...

 

[bewsher500]

Personally I think it is wrong that you can put venison into the food chain without level 2.

Why?
what next?
X MQ series exams for every animal ever eaten?

Level2 is a test of three stalks.
it is not a indemnity from contamination, chill failure, transport issues, processing issues or anything else that is THE REAL danger in putting meat I to the food chain

i have lost more deer to a broken chiller or slap happy delivery driver between me and the game dealer than would ever be lost to my "sub level2 standard" gralloch!

It offends me that anyone with level 2 would consider themselves above another stalker in any terms, least of all competency or carcass handling just because they have a badge.

i have seen some truly shocking attempts at grallochs by people who have been stalking long enough to know better and do have all the paperwork and Blue Peter badges.
Rarely something a good larder prep or processing by a competent butcher couldn't tidy up.


I have seen first hand the abortions that arrive in highland game by L2 qualified contractors.......I wouldn't personally buy any of them as a carcass but everyone is happy to buy them as burgers in waitrose because a guy win a badge was involved!!!

 

[Apache]

Granted the majority of wild deer are healthy, but some are not. If the carcase is diseased and you miss it then there is a real risk of making people very sick or even killing them. This is not something to be taken lightly. How the hell you are supposed to deicide whether an animal is suffering from enlarged lymph nodes when you don't even know what a lymph node is.

Before a meat inspector is set loose in an abattoir they have months of training. In a lot of cases all he does is put the carcase aside for the OV to inspect with years of training with specialist training on top!

It's not a tick box exercise.

There should be a system whereby people certifying carcases as 'fit' with their DMQ number can be traced back if they are presenting unsuitable beasts to the game-dealer. There needs to be some sort of ramification.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

There should be a system whereby people certifying carcases as 'fit' with their DMQ number can be traced back if they are presenting unsuitable beasts to the game-dealer. There needs to be some sort of ramification.

Eh? Surely there is? A game tag will have the full details of the trained hunter and therefore can be traced back if there is a problem. This is traceability surely??!!
MS

 

[Apache]

Is it happening? What happens when these 'abortions' of carcases land at the game-dealer? Are they being reported back? Are people being stripped of their level 1 & 2? Do they lose the right to use their number and present carcases into the food chain?

Or is it as I suspect - there is no feedback and once you have your number its yours for life.

 

[woodfordfallow]

my two pence worth i really pushed myself for level two i wanted to know in my own mind if i was lacking in my knowledge i really enjoyed the experience. I here all the time people want a fast track through and a cheaper option and to me makes a joke of the system it should be something to be proud of not doing it quickly,
christ you look abroad and see european hunting tests and they last years and you need to know everything about all species not just deer. people whining all the time about how you don't need this or that,
for me it should be made harder not easier it is becoming a joke and i worked hard to learn and will continue to do so because i love what i am doing and i don't want it easy. I understand thats not what everyone wants but you are just cheating the system ,but who cares it seems more and more come into stalking everyday and just want the quick fix and a cheep ride ,im off to bed now as i have had enough port ,atb wayne

Well done wayne my thoughts too. So this means that we can now do level two in a pen /park .This is a different level two than I did. The only thing I think is if you can stalk and shoot your first deer why have to do it twice more. If its ok to shoot deer in a park level two will not sound good to our foreign partners when they have to work so hard for a firearms certificate. It seems a lot of money to go shoot three deer from a deer park to put venison in the larder. ( Its not showing how candidate stalks and shoots a wild deer ) woodfordfallow

 

[mereside]

Is it happening? What happens when these 'abortions' of carcases land at the game-dealer? Are they being reported back? Are people being stripped of their level 1 & 2? Do they lose the right to use their number and present carcases into the food chain?

Or is it as I suspect - there is no feedback and once you have your number its yours for life.

Apache this was my point in another thread on game dealers and also what i tried to put across in my earlier post, the dsc system surely needs amendment right back to level 1
once you have read the book and done level 1 you can enter deer into the food chain alot of folk doing level 1 have never even seen a deer before let alone shot one they have been asked by some force to do it as a matter of gaining an fac.
surely if you do level 1 and pass the food hygene part that you would think that gralloching deer would be a big part of that as reading a book to doing it in the field is a world apart so if you pass level 1 then doing a gralloch alongside the theory should be part of that to be able to put deer into the foodchain because how can you have a trained hunter status if you have never been trained in a gralloch. you only have to look on sd in the disease section of people posting about things they find so on to level two how is condensing it down over a weekend making it better? surely by doing different stalks and probably over different grounds gives you more chance to show your knowledge and also a bigger chance of coming across a difference in every aspect ie disease or even just down to habits of different deer.
I also think that at the game dealers if the deer don't meet standards then you should be flagged up and warned and if you don't change then lose your dsc or go back and ammend your faults but unless game dealers stop taking bad grallochs or taking deer from sources known to be poaching then how is anything going to change?,
atb wayne

 

[JabaliHunter]

my two pence worth i really pushed myself for level two i wanted to know in my own mind if i was lacking in my knowledge i really enjoyed the experience. I here all the time people want a fast track through and a cheaper option and to me makes a joke of the system it should be something to be proud of not doing it quickly,
christ you look abroad and see european hunting tests and they last years and you need to know everything about all species not just deer. people whining all the time about how you don't need this or that,
for me it should be made harder not easier it is becoming a joke and i worked hard to learn and will continue to do so because i love what i am doing and i don't want it easy. I understand thats not what everyone wants but you are just cheating the system ,but who cares it seems more and more come into stalking everyday and just want the quick fix and a cheep ride ,im off to bed now as i have had enough port ,atb wayne

I share your sentiments, but the only way that I can see this being achieved would be for DSC testing to be compulsory either for shooting deer or getting a deer condition on the FAC, but when this issue has been raised on here there is generally a lot of opposition from entrenched interests.

 

[sikamalc]

We have had this discussion on here before I think. I for one personally do not agree with taking Level 2 in any fenced area. I also believe that you should stalk and take at least 2 different species.

Taking a Level 2 stalk in a deer park whether its a 1000 acres or not is to me wrong. But that is my personal opinion.

 

[Jelendeer]

Is it happening? What happens when these 'abortions' of carcases land at the game-dealer? Are they being reported back? Are people being stripped of their level 1 & 2? Do they lose the right to use their number and present carcases into the food chain?

Or is it as I suspect - there is no feedback and once you have your number its yours for life.

I'm with you on this one Apache. I did bring this up on SD a couple of years ago and was criticised by almost everyone. I can understand the resistance from those who have DSC1 and are 'trained hunters', as it makes their meat hygiene certified status a bit of a laugh. Whether they have actually shot, gralloched and inspected any deer or not seems to be immaterial, they are still effectively 'qualified' to inspect and submit deer into the human food chain!!! … I don't get it

Having said that, the images below are of a carcass that was submitted, complete with tag as fit for human consumption, by a DSC2 holder, with 40 years experience!!!! … But, nevertheless he's 'qualified' on paper. In reality it appears not so!



For the record, this carcass was rejected by us, but I was told by the person in question that another game dealer "accepted it, no problems"! I never heard that anything was 'traced back' to the person. …….

 

[Jelendeer]

It appears that most of the criticism of the BDS DSC2 Park Option comes from those who already have DSC2!! … I wonder if the same people would have criticised it if they were about to do their DSC2 culls.

Three issues come to mind here:

1) The difference is only that the candidate is not 'wasting' stacks of time wandering around an area, being charged for it by an AW, and where it is possible that animals are simply not there. If you fail to even find a beast, then you pay to go again!!! … On a park of 2000 or 3000 acres the deer ARE going to behave much as they do in the wild. … Oh, and also the fact that a wounded animal WILL be recovered in a controlled environment!!!

2) Everybody has the choice in how they want to achieve their DSC2. If you prefer the 'harder' route and are happy to pay AW's more money to go out time and time again, then that option is there for you. If you prefer the 'Cost-Effective' option, then its waiting for you.

3) Regarding the ICR's, it makes no difference whatsoever wether you choose the 'Harder' option, or the 'Cost-effective' option, the performance criteria are still the same and the candidate MUST demonstrate the same knowledge and skills to be signed off.

Nobody's twisting anyone's arm to do DSC2 by either route. You simply need to choose which one suits you.

Finally, in recent years there has been much criticism of the BDS for being stuck in the rut and unwilling to change - and I was one of the criticisers!! - but here we see the BDS actually moving forward, and I for one think its a positive move on their part, but it is disappointing to see people still bitching about a new initiative. YOU have the choice, and I don't think the BDS are about to 'short-circuit' the proper procedures and performance criteria. Why would they???

They, (like Jelen) are simply offering an alternative, and to a point taking the uncertainty and the 'cash-cow' factor out of the equation.

Regards,

Mike.

Mike Allison
Managing Director - Jelen Deer Services
01264 811155

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Is it happening? What happens when these 'abortions' of carcases land at the game-dealer? Are they being reported back? Are people being stripped of their level 1 & 2? Do they lose the right to use their number and present carcases into the food chain?

Or is it as I suspect - there is no feedback and once you have your number its yours for life.

Completely agree..

Seen some real horror stories at more than a couple of dealers..