BASC response to proposed Scottish deer management changes

[Bowland blades]

BASC has responded to a Scottish Government stakeholder consultation on proposals to implement some recommendations made by the Deer Working Group to amend the Deer (Scotland) Act 1996.

In summary:

SUPPORT - Permit the use of light intensifying, heat sensitive or other special sighting devices to shoot deer at night.
SUPPORT - Amend the minimum bullet weight so as to make non-lead ammunition more accessible.
OPPOSED - Remove close seasons for male deer (red, sika, fallow, roe).

Click weblink below for more detail.

BASC response to Scottish deer management changes

The proposals relate to the use of night shooting equipment, minimum bullet weights and the removal of the close seasons for male deer.

basc.org.uk

You know what ? There are going to be deaths of stock and perhaps persons via allowing thermals. Already we have seen this in lancs an Cumbria by a fool breaking the law and he ended up shooting a pony ! I have no qualms about Spotlight culling as a team of two and have done it under licence quite a few times over the years 2 or 3 men one with the light one with the gun . This i firmly believe will lead to persons and stock , domesticated animals getting a bullet and persons and properties similar . Its a step too far. Until really pressed hard and continuous deer take a long time to wise up to the light if your not missing and wounding ( especialy if there is some traffic passing through ) . Out of season culling of stags - Will effect the numbers of hinds/does killed and its the number of female deer not being shot that creates overpopulation, well done on that front!
I know the issues with BASC councils but really matters like this should go to folks that actually know what they are talking about as they are easily mis-lead . Gosh its just like when support was given by the council to all year round Graylag initially at least !
I can hear the masses chomping at the bit but very , very few of the masses in membership numbers will get more shooting out of this , indeed the exact opposite
Bullet weights have also be over played by too long by too many , the only thing that matters is bullet construction and
design not weight . Placement above all that and its a fact that less experienced riflemen shoot more accurately in the field with a smaller calibre. Be a good idea if we matched the Scottish situation and added Roe to the 50 grain .22 cf

 

[User00053]

Worth mentioning fools with lamps have been shooting stock since at least 1980 to my knowledge including pony.
My experience of thermal scopes to shoot with in terms of identifying targets is only positive along with both nv and lamp.
If no full body with any no shot, plenty folks have shot at eyes in a lamps over the years with resulting death of livestock long before thermal was available and used by anyone as not costly compared to good nv or thermal.

 

[StephenToast]

i dunnoe ...... i agree with what he says regarding people mistaking target species for other items...... already had a local lad shooting foxes on golf courses thinking they were rabbits with thermal ...golf course didn't want foxes shot..... and as for the bit about wild camping and bushcraft ..yup ..i do myself and often worry about it form the other side of the coin. & its definitely grown in popularity
....im seeing folk at night where we never used to see them etc ..... for me a thermal is as much a safety device as anything....I've had personally folk I've picked up with thermal i would never have spotted with binos.

cost will have some folk scanning with one device ...& unfortunately there are folks with firearms who i wouldn't let loose mowing my lawn!

was there not a case few years back of a guy shot in lung / chest in uk by folk out lamping?

Paul

But you can't penalise capable, concientious people because of tossers.
Otherwise cars would be illegal.

 

[StephenToast]

Worth mentioning fools with lamps have been shooting stock since at least 1980 to my knowledge including pony.
My experience of thermal scopes to shoot with in terms of identifying targets is only positive along with both nv and lamp.
If no full body with any no shot, plenty folks have shot at eyes in a lamps over the years with resulting death of livestock long before thermal was available and used by anyone as not costly compared to good nv or thermal.

Exacly.

 

[David Barker]

They do!

I know that and that will be why we are at desperation state

 

[David Barker]

Your the one that talks Sh!t.
If the aim is to drastically reduce numbers there should be no seasons at all , shoot on sight policy .
Please don't tell me numbers increase when thousands are shot ffs

The facts remain deer numbers are higher now than they ever were. Now if you have anything to say other wise please let Naturescot know because all the experts have told them deer numbers are still on the rise and cause significant negative effects on the NFE and other SSSI

 

[griff]

I know that and that will be why we are at desperation state

I don't manage deer, I just cull them, I have no input into the management strategy, I made a comment on how when we did have some input, we overshot the males by over 60% and the knock on effect was very apparent. If you had of come back with "o'h thats interesting" then you might of had some credulity,instead just a foul mouthed response, I did think at one time you could be 6pointer in disguise.

 

[David Barker]

I could give you any credibility with that statement as it contradicts so many experts past and present and i have never witnessed it were i have had to manage deer to as near as zero as we could. Sadly we could only start in April as the land manager got his lease then. We culled the male deer as hard as is humanly possible to the point were we found it hard to find a male. Come the rut and most big females had a decent buck in toe. Any females that made it to the spring had twins. This ground was shot hard for 8 years to a real low number. We stepped back on request and it recovered in just two seasons. This is what i would expect knowing that the ground all around us was not managed. The problem FLS has in many of the areas they manage. 6 Pointer ?

 

[Mick9abf]

Well I’m away to price up a thermal scope - game on. It’ll be better than lamping them in winter/with OOS as they can become touchy as feck after a while so it’s another tool in the box.

It’s up to the individual if they want to shoot males year round so I don’t know that there’s any reason to get all argumentative over it, you either do it or don’t, it’s up to you and what you want to achieve.

Personally I will shoot them in forestry as that’ll be what the manager wants but not in areas where there is no pressure because frankly I love roe bucks/red deer, the bigger the better and I’m not ashamed to say it. I’ve shot plenty scabby things so call me a trophy hunter if you want to.

 

[Dan Newcombe]

You don’t have to use thermal / NV - it’s just going to be a tool that will be put in the kit bag.

Personally I would have no qualms with using NV for contracting - deer very quickly get jumpy with the light.

It will mean more deer are shot, it won’t be any more dangerous than a lamp and shouldn’t really be any more than shooting in the day.

Shooting males all year round isn’t a massive issue either in my mind - you will do well to shoot the last deer outside a fence.

 

[KentCountryGent]

I am very much a recreational stalker and a novice so it is really interesting to read all of the opinions here on this topic from those with a wealth of experience and knowledge.

This is more of a question than anything, but surely the removal of a closed season would pressure deer to become more elusive / nocturnal as already mentioned, in turn making a desired reduction in numbers more difficult, and also thereby necessitating the use of NV/thermal to achieve population reduction? Would one measure be possible without the other?

Also, I would think that most of us on here are strongly united by our love for/fascination with deer so I do find it surprising to see so much of what could be seen as in-fighting in these comments.

 

[David Barker]

Removing the close season for male deer is necessary as the identification of deer at distance with a lamp or thermal is extremely hard. If we still had the original close season then lamping would not be taking place. It is necessary to have both sexes in season at the same time so that the night shooters and there bosses do not fall foul of the law. Regards sending deer nocturnal this should work both ways. But facts are that deer have always been most active after dark. The books dawn and dusk relate to the times that we were most likely to see deer. It was always well know by the early lampers of foxes and rabbits (Hilman imp Rally lamp and motor cycle batteries) That deer were mainly nocturnal in there movement,s.

 

[@theroedeerguy]

Removing the close season for male deer is necessary as the identification of deer at distance with a lamp or thermal is extremely hard. If we still had the original close season then lamping would not be taking place. It is necessary to have both sexes in season at the same time so that the night shooters and there bosses do not fall foul of the law. Regards sending deer nocturnal this should work both ways. But facts are that deer have always been most active after dark. The books dawn and dusk relate to the times that we were most likely to see deer. It was always well know by the early lampers of foxes and rabbits (Hilman imp Rally lamp and motor cycle batteries) That deer were mainly nocturnal in there movement,s.

David

That’s not entirely accurate saying both sexes need to be in season to stop people falling foul of the law when spotlighting.

As you know, spotlighting is done under night authorisation more often than not during the female season and in those circumstances it is often the case that male deer will also be licensed to be taken due to the damage being incurred so the “season” dates are inconsequential.

The extension of the male season is a typical glass half full to some people and glass half empty to others.

There’s an argument that the flexibility of year round control could reduce the necessity of a night authorisation if cull targets can be met during “traditional” stalking hours.

If you look at New Zealand which has no season restrictions the main pressure on culling deer still tends to be focused around the traditional rutting times for males, I see no reason why that won’t remain the same here and the open season will allow a bit more flexibility for dealing with damage to timber and agricultural crops in high pressure areas.

I think @griff was referencing the former 6 pointer user name as you were posting photographs that were taken by David Quarrel who used to have a link on SD
“Controlling Urban Deer” which was a 30 page brochure/ guide.

 

[skywull]

this canny be davie quarrel he liked winding folk up this man isnt lol

 

[David Barker]

David

That’s not entirely accurate saying both sexes need to be in season to stop people falling foul of the law when spotlighting.

As you know, spotlighting is done under night authorisation more often than not during the female season and in those circumstances it is often the case that male deer will also be licensed to be taken due to the damage being incurred so the “season” dates are inconsequential.

The extension of the male season is a typical glass half full to some people and glass half empty to others.

There’s an argument that the flexibility of year round control could reduce the necessity of a night authorisation if cull targets can be met during “traditional” stalking hours.

If you look at New Zealand which has no season restrictions the main pressure on culling deer still tends to be focused around the traditional rutting times for males, I see no reason why that won’t remain the same here and the open season will allow a bit more flexibility for dealing with damage to timber and agricultural crops in high pressure areas.

I think @griff was referencing the former 6 pointer user name as you were posting photographs that were taken by David Quarrel who used to have a link on SD
“Controlling Urban Deer” which was a 30 page brochure/ guide.

I understand why you would say this is not entirely accurate but in the main it is. Night authorisation were given blanket status to FLS even in areas were there was no damage. Now as a long time deer manager i know how hard it is to separate male from female in a lamp. I fully understand why the males are shot in the female season under authorisation. If we could shoot only females in a lamp then i am sure Nature.Scot would have females only written on the night licence. We as a country are tasked with shooting a further 50.000 deer. That will be left at the feet of Nature.scot and FLS. It was expected that there would be changes to legislation. That said i was hoping the changes would start to solve the problem.

 

[User00053]

Consider the vastness of the areas involved and the range of various species, coupled with the different types of land ownership Hardly surprising if in general numbers are building across the whole of Scotland still to me.
For certain great efforts made in reducing numbers with good success in isolation but do not think it would be possible to ever get the job under control as some would want regardless all to vast and ownership issues.
Another decade or so and probably be forgotten about and move on to something else as just not practical though every little helps as the wren once apparently said.

 

[foxhunter]

this canny be davie quarrel he liked winding folk up this man isnt lol

We all know who it is aka Wireviz

 

[rem284]

There seems to be one prominent expert. So, what is the answer to Scotland's deer population problem?

Btw, I am no expert, I just shoot deer.

 

[VSS]

There seems to be one prominent expert. So, what is the answer to Scotland's deer population problem?

Btw, I am no expert, I just shoot deer.

You ain't seen nothing, mate! Just you pop over to the Putin thread, and you'll be absolutely astounded by the number of experts that lurk within the membership of this site. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that world leaders dip into SD from time to time, just to keep themselves advised on the Ukraine situation.

 

[User00053]

Clearly no expert and don’t shoot deer as such now but joking aside think it may involve elements of Wagner when they have the time or concede it is probably as good as it is going to get or near as.