Changes to Firearms Licensing. What would you do?

[8x57]

The whole of the firearms system is underfunded. Its run at a loss.

It's not exactly underfunded Malc, very often it's more a case of being mismanaged or sticking rigidly to Spanish practices. Also the system is not intended to generate at a profit but ideally should be self financing, however in order to achieve this forces need to demonstrate improved efficiency and the full adoption of electronic commerce which has long been a demand of the Home Office.

With regard to police forces monitoring social media, I know for a fact and from professional experience in a different area of licensing that some police forces garner an awful lot of useful intelligence from social media and put much of that information to good use.

 

[SOE]

Much has been said about the Police procedures but at the end of the day SOMEONE made the decision to return his gun(s)...the FEO / Licensing Manager are the only people who administered this situation...I do feel their anguish as they must now live with this outcome and answer very probing and detailed scrutiny.

 

[nun_hunter]

It's not exactly underfunded Malc, very often it's more a case of being mismanaged or sticking rigidly to Spanish practices. Also the system is not intended to generate at a profit but ideally should be self financing, however in order to achieve this forces need to demonstrate improved efficiency and the full adoption of electronic commerce which has long been a demand of the Home Office.

With regard to police forces monitoring social media, I know for a fact and from professional experience in a different area of licensing that some police forces garner an awful lot of useful intelligence from social media and put much of that information to good use.

If your social media profiles are private (mine are and I do not see why anyone would have them public access) then the police can't view them anyway so its irrelevant if you tell them your Facebook, YouTube or Instagram username if they can't see what you're posting.

It may be of benefit because the majority of people who have open access profiles are those that crave attention and in a minority of cases its for marginalised worrying views they wish to share.

 

[Oracle]

Much has been said about the Police procedures but at the end of the day SOMEONE made the decision to return his gun(s)...the FEO / Licensing Manager are the only people who administered this situation...I do feel their anguish as they must now live with this outcome and answer very probing and detailed scrutiny.

Not quite true.....On appeal against revocation the Crown Court can find in the Appelants favour and direct the Chief Officer to return certificates and firearms.

The circumstances of why and how they were returned are all supposition at this time.

 

[timbrayford]

The whole of the firearms system is underfunded. Its run at a loss. It would never surprise me to see a large increase in fees. I am also of the view that all firearms owners should have public liability insurance, before a licence is issued. At the moment there is no requirement for this.

If the authorities decide to undertake a review of everyone's certificate, this is going to take a great deal resources from the police. Something they are struggling with now, especially as we are coming out (I hope) of this pandemic. It would also not surprise me to see them putting all shotguns on the same terms as rifled firearms. In that good reason needs to be shown.

Whatever the outcome, we still have possibly the most secure firearms laws in the world, and rightly so, although the media would have the public to believe we are all running around like Rambo.

The licensing system from the outset was supposed to stop armed revolution, in the modern era is it really necessary to require good reason on each & every gun, 1-4-1 variations & S1 on sound moderators? Surely a simple electronic record at the point of sale would enable the security forces to detect who was building up an arsenal to start a civil war with? The whole system needs simplifying along the lines of S2 to enable the police to use their scarce resources on enquiring into the applicants background, especially when doubts have been raised. What we most certainly don't need is a Dunblane style cover up to hide public sector embarrassment.

 

[TH4]

I suspect that the initial outcome of this will be that the medical profession will refuse to sign the FAC / SGC forms until they ramp up the fees for doing so.

How does that work when the doctor charges whatever he wants anyway. There is no set fee to ramp up

 

[Liveonce]

Some forces most certainly do look at social media when processing applications or investigating complaints about a certificate holder. This only applies to publicly accessible content, of course. If a social media trawl becomes an official requirement, then I am sure they will make us pay the costs, as the public won't agree to "subsidising" the certification process any further. Many don't think we should even have firearms for "recreational" purposes.

To give an idea of some current public attitudes, take this letter from a London-based reader in today Daily Telegraph:

Sir - I was astonished to read that over half a million people have firearms certificates in Britain (report, August 14).

It is difficult to think of any justification for someone living in an urban area to have gun, and I doubt that many rural gun owners really need them (as opposed to having one because "everybody else round here does").

Licences should be issued for one year only and no one should be given a licence without demonstrating a genuine need to have a gun. The default position should be to decline an application, and the police should be given a target to get the total down to 50,000 within two years.

The shooting organisations should reply along the lines of then sir it just goes to show how law abiding the half a million firearm certificate holder are in this country given that you know nothing about it, shows how rarely anybody who owns a certificate comes to the attention of the readers of the Daily Telegraph. Compare that the frequency drugs and alcohol, dangerous driving, knife crimes etc come to the attention of the readers.

 

[Colonel Rimfire]

At this time I think its prudent to think of the families and all those effected by this horrible incident. We wouldn't want to wish to appear to be insensitive at this time.

However I think as gun owners we feel the hurt all the Morse so as the misuse of guns is an abhorrence to all of us. It doubly hurts us to see people injured and killed

Sadly also we are often tarred with the same brush and seen as sinister or a threat.

We should try to forgive the general public and media for their ignorance at what is, after all a highly technical sport, instead try to educate and not fulfil any negative stereotypes associated with our community. I try to show a little give and take and imho try not to rise to the occasion.

With regards to licencing

I would mimic the Canadian system of firearm licensing, They have an electronic system with a competency examination, much like a driving test,

No need for 5 year renewals, as Certificate holders are electronically monitored on a constant DBS style system i.e. if they commit an offense or present at their GP, they are instantly flagged and their guns etc are confiscated until they can prove they are well again.

They have so few gun deaths they don't even record them.

Worth a watch

 

[timbrayford]

Just a for thoughts for discussion more anything else, in respect of recreational shooters:
Stage 1 Probationary membership of a recognised shooting club mandatory - police informed, CRB check made
Stage 2 Mandatory firearms safe handling exam to be passed, hopefully supported by LANTRA, NRA etc.
Stage 3 Satisfactorily get approval from club after 6 months - support for FAC/SGC application
Stage 4 FEO interview & further background checks made - if approved to stage 5
Stage 5 Provisional certificate issued, restricted to 1 firearm/shotgun, valid 2 years
Stage 6 Further FEO interview & background checks, satisfactory references from club, if OK full certificate issued - a banded system in e.g. 6 firearm increments may be worthwhile?
Compulsory 3rd party insurance & satisfactory firearm/ammo security at all times- 2nd certificate duration 5 years, thereafter 10 years, continuous e-commerce monitoring of purchases to reveal any unusual activity for the purposes of public confidence in the system. GP marker on medical records of FAC/SGC holders and applicants.

 

[Liveonce]

Just a for thoughts for discussion more anything else, in respect of recreational shooters:
Stage 1 Probationary membership of a recognised shooting club mandatory - police informed, CRB check made
Stage 2 Mandatory firearms safe handling exam to be passed, hopefully supported by LANTRA, NRA etc.
Stage 3 Satisfactorily get approval from club after 6 months - support for FAC/SGC application
Stage 4 FEO interview & further background checks made - if approved to stage 5
Stage 5 Provisional certificate issued, restricted to 1 firearm/shotgun, valid 2 years
Stage 6 Further FEO interview & background checks, satisfactory references from club, if OK full certificate issued - a banded system in e.g. 6 firearm increments may be worthwhile?
Compulsory 3rd party insurance & satisfactory firearm/ammo security at all times- 2nd certificate duration 5 years, thereafter 10 years, continuous e-commerce monitoring of purchases to reveal any unusual activity for the purposes of public confidence in the system. GP marker on medical records of FAC/SGC holders and applicants.

I was going to give a long response, but I will just say never read such rubbish from a pro gun person, you may just as well go for step 1 ban all gun ownership.

 

[bottletopbill]

Sorry do not agree with stage two extra cost again. Yes agree with safe handling but all rifle clubs you have to complete a safe handling test.
All clay clubs should do this if they are using this method to get a licence was told my police officer that he went clay shooting and a girl fired at a clay trap blowing the remote control panel off
Fully agree with must be insured

 

[cjm1066]

Shotgun licensing at least allow you to buy and sell guns as you wish.

FAC, so much focus on each rifle, we need reasons for each calibre and this is the focus of the licensing system, its non productive and expensive. This aspect could easily be made similar and the focus changed to the "person".

 

[Liveonce]

Section 1 shooting clubs already have to follow home office/police rules for probationary members.

This tragic incident was by a section 2 shotgun.

Entry into ownership is generally for clay pigeon shooting, practical shotgun or game/pest control.

All clay grounds affiliated to the CPSA will have at least one CPSA qualified safety officer. Novices will be supervised at all times either by the safety officer or experienced gun owner. Most clubs will offer novice trial sessions of which safety will be part of it.
Game/pest control shooters probably enter gun ownership either as a transition from clay shooting or via a family member or friend who teaches them safe gun handling.

Warning signs were missed and help not forthcoming, if true the police returned the shotguns after a anger management course, so before we start adding more hurdles to gun ownership the process and logic the police followed in concluding it was safe to return the guns needs a full and public enquiry.

 

[JTO]

This tragic incident was by a section 2 shotgun.

That's what I thought, but one well-known contributor said it had been reported as Section 1 (5-shot).

 

[Lord V]

From what we know at the moment I would suggest very little 'has' to change on the licencing front. What we have currently works just fine.

What I would like to see in my mental utopia:

1) Centralised governance via a body like the DVLA - carries their own Dr's trained in mental health and firearms who do an assessment and review your medical records alongside the police interview. Like the DVLA some issues are self notifiable and other automatically reported.
2) Digital 'Photo Card' License
3) DBS style continual review rather than reapplying every 5 years.
4) Basic firearms handling course prior to grant ( yes I know that won't be popular...)
5) Compulsory 3rd party insurance (again....)
6) No more 1 for 1's - all purchasing is as it is for section 2
7) Tickets are automatically open
8) Calibres are 'banded' and roughly aligned with the good reason given.

What I think we will get:

1) Hastily drafted guidance on social media and mental health review that has more holes than a fishing net and open to interpretation by every force under the sun.
2) significant ball ache to grants and renewals for the next 18 months before it all fizzles a bit and everyone accepts an uneasy status quo.

 

[finnbear270]

Will this mean I HAVE to have a FBook account?

 

[User00035]

Will this mean I HAVE to have a FBook account?

I'd rather surrender my ticket than sign up to that crap and put more money in Zuckerberg's pocket.

 

[bottletopbill]

Let us not forget this case is a error that should not have happened he should have been on the radar.
Most gun crime is illegal firearms and four people shoot yet again. No outcry or tougher sentences being considered by Authorities is this because it would upset to many people.
Those that allowed this to happen should be held accountable Not just legal gun owner's yet again.

BASC and other group's should work together and speak up and join forces and be a voice for there members'

 

[JTO]

From what we know at the moment I would suggest very little 'has' to change on the licencing front. What we have currently works just fine.

This is what I think.
10-year certificates with 1-2 yearly audits to make sure you still have the guns and have not died of left the country perhaps.

 

[bottletopbill]

Perhaps BASC and police should say two years probation and if you have insurance cover and completed gun safety .
Ten year licence and police do background checks