Dead or not dead??

[Utectok]

Weird one today stalked into a stag at about 70m could only see its antlers as it was lying in dead bracken. Thought about calling it to stand but lots of trees and I had a very small shooting lane so I thought if it moves one step I won’t get a shot…. Anyway it finally looked towards me and I shot where I thought his head was through the bracken. Generally I don’t head shoot unless the animal is looking towards or away from me as this reduces the chance of a jaw shot. He keeled over as I expected and another bigger stag I’d not seen got up. I shot him in the chest and he ran on 20m or so. Anyway I located both stags after a brief search then went back the first one I shot. There was no way I was going to get both beasts out of the wood I was in as it was miles to the truck over rough ground so I decided to quarter them in the field and take out what I could. I rested my rifle on the animal and noticed it was moving. It was like the heart was beating!! I poked the eyelid again definitely dead… blood out of the nose and ear but I couldn’t locate the exit wound. Must have hit the neck bones and failed to exit I dunno?
Anyway on taking off the first rear quarter I cut through the artery and the blood pumped out like a fire hydrant. The heart was clearly working!!
I had spent maybe 20 mins looking for the second stag I shot so it had been a while before I got back to this one? Had I somehow paralysed the animal but not killed it or was it dead but the heart just pulsing? Really strange one.

 

[Jon P]

Slightly different, never noticed that with deer. But have gutted rabbits immediately after they have been shot to see the heart still pumping on the ground next to the carcass.

 

[Deermanagement]

I had an unusual one similar to your experience on the weekend. I also don't like shooting head or neck unless the animal is facing on or away, so after finding a couple of sika laid up in bramble of which a calf was looking straight at me at 30m, it was all that was on. I had to keep the shot on it's chin to avoid an exit that may have caught it's back and at the shot, it slumped when the 130g accubond hit it. Two others jumped up and stood off to the side looking back at the first and it took me a while to get a second with another neck shot. Job done I thought so checked with a thermal to make sure all was well in the fading light, but couldn't now see the first. There was another deer still stood in bramble which I first assumed was the 3rd animal, but after watching for a short while, I could see it staggering around. First thoughts was an accidental strike but with the first not visible I came to the conclusion it was this animal back on it's feet. Anyway, long story short, I though I managed to get a killing shot on the animal again, a shoulder shot and the animal went down. I watched for a while before approaching and when I did, I found that my killing shot had not reached it's target and the animal had expired from the original first shot. I have never seen so much damage to a deer's head and have it still alive, let alone see it stand back up. I was amazed and saddened to know it had not died instantly but know that if you shoot enough, things will not always go to book. It is always advisable to cover a neck or head shot animal and to get into it quickly if possible.

 

[Woodsy]

Peter Green, British Deer Society Hon Veterinary Advisor, gave a fascinating talk at the South West England Branch Member’s Day last year. The talk was titled ‘The Pathology of Killing Deer’.

Notes from that talk ref head shooting are as follows;

The brain shot.

Effect; instant insensibility. Drops to the ground. ‘Brain dead’. Respiratory centre and frontal lobes destroyed, therefore no consciousness and no breathing.

BUT; heart still beats. Circulation continues. Reflex motor function operates until blood oxygen falls. Rapid bleeding out important.

 

[deerstalker.308]

Peter Green, British Deer Society Hon Veterinary Advisor, gave a fascinating talk at the South West England Branch Member’s Day last year. The talk was titled ‘The Pathology of Killing Deer’.

Notes from that talk ref head shooting are as follows;

The brain shot.

Effect; instant insensibility. Drops to the ground. ‘Brain dead’. Respiratory centre and frontal lobes destroyed, therefore no consciousness and no breathing.

BUT; heart still beats. Circulation continues. Reflex motor function operates until blood oxygen falls. Rapid bleeding out important.

Been kicked many a time by a head shot “dead” deer that still has a lot of muscle reflex and heart pumping, as you say, bleed them quickly, drain the system. I never trust a head shot and will always follow up with the knife however dead they seem

 

[Woodsy]

Just to add to my previous post. Peter Green’s presentation was primarily deer welfare focused. He included photographs to illustrate the obvious issues around welfare with this shot placement when it goes wrong, especially with wild deer.

Not to say there isn’t a time/place of course, but the ability to judge this well is not as common as some people would have others believe.

 

[Mungo]

Weird one today stalked into a stag at about 70m could only see its antlers as it was lying in dead bracken. Thought about calling it to stand but lots of trees and I had a very small shooting lane so I thought if it moves one step I won’t get a shot…. Anyway it finally looked towards me and I shot where I thought his head was through the bracken. Generally I don’t head shoot unless the animal is looking towards or away from me as this reduces the chance of a jaw shot. He keeled over as I expected and another bigger stag I’d not seen got up. I shot him in the chest and he ran on 20m or so. Anyway I located both stags after a brief search then went back the first one I shot. There was no way I was going to get both beasts out of the wood I was in as it was miles to the truck over rough ground so I decided to quarter them in the field and take out what I could. I rested my rifle on the animal and noticed it was moving. It was like the heart was beating!! I poked the eyelid again definitely dead… blood out of the nose and ear but I couldn’t locate the exit wound. Must have hit the neck bones and failed to exit I dunno?
Anyway on taking off the first rear quarter I cut through the artery and the blood pumped out like a fire hydrant. The heart was clearly working!!
I had spent maybe 20 mins looking for the second stag I shot so it had been a while before I got back to this one? Had I somehow paralysed the animal but not killed it or was it dead but the heart just pulsing? Really strange one.

I think it really depends on exactly where in the head/neck you hit and what you damage.

I have seen a few head shots where the heart keeps going for a while. Seems more likely with front on shots that are a bit high and don’t damage the brain stem.

 

[NullMac]

Death is not binary. There is still a lot of energy still in the body. It is well know than an animal can be brain dead but the heart still beating on its own for a while. Get it suspended and cut the jugular for a good bleed.

 

[Ratel]

Once chest shot a Sika stag on the edge of a track which went down.
Got to it and stuck it straight away to bleed it after the usual test. We left it where it was and went on to get truck so we could move to another area. We stopped to pick up the deer but it had gone. We eventually found it forty yards into thick cover. I will never understand how a dead, bled out deer could kick itself through so much cover and for such a distance. One of life's mysteries.

 

[Heym SR20]

In Zambia I once shot a heifer for meat. I was using a 32 ACP pistol. Shot in the forehead. It went straight down.

Getting ready to start gralloching then skinning and it got to its feet.

So shot it again in the same place, but this time immediately cut its throat.

An animal, bird or human is only properly dead when there is no longer a supply of oxygenated blood flowing around the body to all the organs.

There are plenty of examples of people being shot in the head, or with other brain injuries being kept alive for a very long time of ventalators, or even through natural process. Some do eventually recover, others do not.

 

[Utectok]

Been kicked many a time by a head shot “dead” deer that still has a lot of muscle reflex and heart pumping, as you say, bleed them quickly, drain the system. I never trust a head shot and will always follow up with the knife however dead they seem

Good advice

 

[Utectok]

Peter Green, British Deer Society Hon Veterinary Advisor, gave a fascinating talk at the South West England Branch Member’s Day last year. The talk was titled ‘The Pathology of Killing Deer’.

Notes from that talk ref head shooting are as follows;

The brain shot.

Effect; instant insensibility. Drops to the ground. ‘Brain dead’. Respiratory centre and frontal lobes destroyed, therefore no consciousness and no breathing.

BUT; heart still beats. Circulation continues. Reflex motor function operates until blood oxygen falls. Rapid bleeding out important.

Thank you thats very interesting

 

[Heym SR20]

In Zambia I once shot a heifer for meat. I was using a 32 ACP pistol. Shot in the forehead. It went straight down.

Getting ready to start gralloching then skinning and it got to its feet.

So shot it again in the same place, but this time immediately cut its throat.

An animal, bird or human is only properly dead when there is no longer a supply of oxygenated blood flowing around the body to all the organs.

There are plenty of examples of people being shot in the head, or with other brain injuries being kept alive for a very long time of ventalators, or even through natural process. Some do eventually recover, others do not.

And be very careful, especially with large antlered or horned animals when cutting their throat. Even if stunned they have a habit of disagreeing with your good intentions, they are very strong and antlers are extremely efficient weapons.

For all of the above reasons a bullet through the chest is often a much better proposition.

 

[Utectok]

Death is not binary. There is still a lot of energy still in the body. It is well know than an animal can be brain dead but the heart still beating on its own for a while. Get it suspended and cut the jugular for a good bleed.

Not much chance of suspending a 120kg stag but I get your point

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Weird one today stalked into a stag at about 70m could only see its antlers as it was lying in dead bracken. Thought about calling it to stand but lots of trees and I had a very small shooting lane so I thought if it moves one step I won’t get a shot…. Anyway it finally looked towards me and I shot where I thought his head was through the bracken. Generally I don’t head shoot unless the animal is looking towards or away from me as this reduces the chance of a jaw shot. He keeled over as I expected and another bigger stag I’d not seen got up. I shot him in the chest and he ran on 20m or so. Anyway I located both stags after a brief search then went back the first one I shot. There was no way I was going to get both beasts out of the wood I was in as it was miles to the truck over rough ground so I decided to quarter them in the field and take out what I could. I rested my rifle on the animal and noticed it was moving. It was like the heart was beating!! I poked the eyelid again definitely dead… blood out of the nose and ear but I couldn’t locate the exit wound. Must have hit the neck bones and failed to exit I dunno?
Anyway on taking off the first rear quarter I cut through the artery and the blood pumped out like a fire hydrant. The heart was clearly working!!
I had spent maybe 20 mins looking for the second stag I shot so it had been a while before I got back to this one? Had I somehow paralysed the animal but not killed it or was it dead but the heart just pulsing? Really strange one.

Whole other meaning to the word dead fresh

 

[Martiniblack577]

Weird one today stalked into a stag at about 70m could only see its antlers as it was lying in dead bracken. Thought about calling it to stand but lots of trees and I had a very small shooting lane so I thought if it moves one step I won’t get a shot…. Anyway it finally looked towards me and I shot where I thought his head was through the bracken. Generally I don’t head shoot unless the animal is looking towards or away from me as this reduces the chance of a jaw shot. He keeled over as I expected and another bigger stag I’d not seen got up. I shot him in the chest and he ran on 20m or so. Anyway I located both stags after a brief search then went back the first one I shot. There was no way I was going to get both beasts out of the wood I was in as it was miles to the truck over rough ground so I decided to quarter them in the field and take out what I could. I rested my rifle on the animal and noticed it was moving. It was like the heart was beating!! I poked the eyelid again definitely dead… blood out of the nose and ear but I couldn’t locate the exit wound. Must have hit the neck bones and failed to exit I dunno?
Anyway on taking off the first rear quarter I cut through the artery and the blood pumped out like a fire hydrant. The heart was clearly working!!
I had spent maybe 20 mins looking for the second stag I shot so it had been a while before I got back to this one? Had I somehow paralysed the animal but not killed it or was it dead but the heart just pulsing? Really strange one.

To confirm: you have a license to go around and shoot animals but don’t know if you cleanly kill or not?

 

[VSS]

To confirm: you have a license to go around and shoot animals but don’t know if you cleanly kill or not?

If you shoot enough, there's always going to be a few anomalies.

 

[olliehopes]

To confirm: you have a license to go around and shoot animals but don’t know if you cleanly kill or not?

This is why people such as knackermen, hunt servants and the animal welfare charities use a pithing rod after using a captive bolt gun, there is no guarantee that they will cease to be just after a hole being up it their head!

 

[Phil fox man]

shot a fallow last year,it moved just as I fired and the shot was a little forward than I wanted but it went straight down.
we waited 5 minutes then went to pick it up.it got up and started walking off.dropped it with a neck shot from the rear.when we got to it the heart was still going,so I cut the jugular and bled it out.
on skinning I had severed the neck but I presume not the cord.the first shot had hit the leg bone but still entered the cavity.

 

[JockStalk]

They don’t always do what the book says they should
Weirdest one I had was a roe doe I bumped into in a forestry ride, it knew something was up but facing away. Quick shot (<50m) hit it in the back of the head. Devastating impact to head but the bugger ran 20m or so into the trees before it realised it was dead. Found a large chunk of the brain at the shot site.