FAC air vs 12ft/lb?

[Conor O'Gorman]

John Swift and the LAG I assume wants a total ban on lead? For the views of this individual seem to be that. That he and his group of which he is the Chairman does want a ban of all lead for all shooting? And indeed is very much proactive in contacting forestry groups regarding lead ammunition for squirrel control..and even the House of Lords Dining Committee on lead shot game...in regard to the use of lead ammunition.

Yet BASC have awarded him Life Membership? So how do you square that circle please?

This link allows you to see all the minutes of recent meetings:

Meetings – Lead Ammunition Group

2015 Report:
What are the options for dealing with the human health problems? The only way to guarantee the mitigation of human health problems arising from consuming meat from animals shot with lead ammunition is to replace it with non-toxic alternatives. There is as yet no convincing evidence that options short of replacement of lead ammunition will address known risks to human health and especially child health.

Note the word lead ammunition not lead pellets from shotgun cartridges and indeed if you read the 2015 LAG Report it is quite clear on that point.

I'd urge other SD Members to follow these links and see the 2022 MInutes of the LAG that John Swift is associated with where "JS" is him below:

https://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Minutes_of_the_27th_Lead_Ammunition_Group_meeting.pdf

Consensus among the group is that the HSE Restriction Dossier for Lead Ammunition is thorough and evidence based.

https://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Minutes_of_the_26th_LAG_group.pdf

JS also notes the need for evidence to counter the anecdotal argument that steel shot has a higher propensity to wound animals. Good idea to highlight the pain and suffering caused to wildlife by lead poisoning.

And this below is well worth reading in full to see what input was made:

https://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Minutes-of-the-24th-LAG-Meeting.pdf

'Whataboutery' and attempts to deflect do not change the fact that BASC is opposed to a ban on the use of lead airgun pellets for target shooting and live quarry shooting.

Click the link below to find out more:

Lead pellet ban: BASC to fight lead airgun pellet ban proposals - Shooting UK

Dr Conor O’Gorman, BASC’s Head of Policy and Campaigns, reviews the proposals to restrict the use of lead ammo, with a firm focus on airguns

www.shootinguk.co.uk

 

[enfieldspares]

It is not "whataboutery" is is that here is a man who chairs a group that promotes an agenda of banning the use of all lead ammunition (and as the links to the minutes make clear is proactive in promoting) that is contrary to indeed beyond the position that you note BASC has that, yet, BASC has chosen give an award of Life Membership to.

 

[TringSaint]

Air arms s410 pre-anti tamper!!
That’s your weapon - two grub screws and you can go from 12-30ft/lbs.
Just need a chrono to check as you move the power up and down (the US version has a power wheel which tells you what the output is). Obvs need fac, etc and all that jazz!

 

[TringSaint]

177 is best right around the 12 ftlb limit , 22 is at its best around 15 ftlb ! After that there are 22rf ammo types available better suited.
Debateable for the need to use an airgun on ticket in England and wales . I have in the past and its very niche in its real advantages and found 22 at around 15 ftlb gave a bit more whack and was a little better on trajectory and terminal effect . The 30 ft lb and over was no better than 22lr with the different ammo available, that's what i do using cci quiets, eley subsonic and velocitors in high velocity rounds .
Bad time in history for the airgun in the UK with Scotland having the airgun licence and the change towards non-toxic
Yeah i know about the super high power slug shooting airguns but they hold no advantages over powder burning cartridges

I remember as a kid using Prometheus and other non toxic sabot type ammo in my HW77, and they worked a treat. They not still a viable option?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

It is not "whataboutery" is is that here is a man who chairs a group that promotes an agenda of banning the use of all lead ammunition (and as the links to the minutes make clear is proactive in promoting) that is contrary to indeed beyond the position that you note BASC has that, yet, BASC has chosen give an award of Life Membership to.

For the avoidance of doubt, BASC is opposed to a ban on the use of lead airgun pellets for target shooting and live quarry shooting.

 

[Tdes]

I remember as a kid using Prometheus and other non toxic sabot type ammo in my HW77, and they worked a treat. They not still a viable option?

In my opinion they were never a viable option, next to no accuracy with any rifle/pistol I shot them through, and they went straight through rather than delivering the energy.

I think the wow factor as a child were how they could shoot straight through stuff normal lead pellets couldn't and they looked really engineered!!

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Here is some extracts from an article in latest issue of BASC magazine Shooting and Conservation....

One of the many issues we have raised on behalf of BASC members is the poor performance of non-lead ammunition for airguns and various rifle calibres and last year we submitted detailed test reports to the HSE evidencing this as part of our consultation response.

The HSE’s proposal to ban the use of lead airgun pellets with no evidence of exposure risk to back that up, underlines the challenges ahead, but nonetheless, research on the non-viability of non-lead options is required in our fightback.

Airgunning is hugely popular with an estimated four million participants (1.6 million of whom shoot live quarry and BASC is concerned about the current viability of non-lead airgun pellets. This includes but is not limited to .177, .20, .22, .25 and .30.

Basingstoke Air Rifle and Pistol Club tested a range of non-lead pellet options for .177 and .22 calibre airguns and the findings were:

• seven of 11 tested airgun / non-lead pellet combinations in .177 calibre were able to achieve groups of <30mm, but none met the muzzle energy threshold of 11ft/lbs rendering them unsuited to shooting of live quarry.
• none of the tested airgun / non-lead pellet combinations in .22 calibre were able to achieve groups <30mm, although one of the combinations did exceed the muzzle energy threshold of 11ft/lbs.

BASC also did some testing on weight retention for lead airgun pellets to show that they do not fragment when fired into ballistic soap (simulating soft tissue of small game animals; and that thy retain 100% of their weight after being fired into ballistic soap, providing evidence that lead is retained in the pellet and is not distributed into the tissue of small game.

 

[TringSaint]

In my opinion they were never a viable option, next to no accuracy with any rifle/pistol I shot them through, and they went straight through rather than delivering the energy.

I think the wow factor as a child were how they could shoot straight through stuff normal lead pellets couldn't and they looked really engineered!!

Probably!! I was 14 at the time!!

 

[Bowland blades]

I remember as a kid using Prometheus and other non toxic sabot type ammo in my HW77, and they worked a treat. They not still a viable option?

i also used them ! they were not as good as you remember them, left plastic in the bore and didn't like a bore with lead in it , then the lead didn't like a bore with plastic in it . sabo where we used a smaller none lead pellet in a sabot was even worse , it was basically about as effective as hitting a bird with just one shotgun pellet ! both where fast dropped for the above reasons and of course i think the cost was higher

 

[TringSaint]

i also used them ! they were not as good as you remember them, left plastic in the bore and didn't like a bore with lead in it , then the lead didn't like a bore with plastic in it . sabo where we used a smaller none lead pellet in a sabot was even worse , it was basically about as effective as hitting a bird with just one shotgun pellet ! both where fast dropped for the above reasons and of course i think the cost was higher

Maybe the weirauch was better with them than most. Certainly never cleaned the barrel - always the issue with an under lever springer!!
I do have an air arms s410 now but gas bottle run out and needs retesting so it’s gathering dust in the cabinet.
Must get it sorted as it’s a sweet rifle.
Might also buy a few thousand pellets!!!

 

[neillfrbs]

was in the same boat last year ,had a slot for 22 air on my ticket for years .thought would be good to get one for birds in trees .picked up a rapid 7 does the job well .

 

[Bowland blades]

Disagree here, 22air at 30+ftlb don’t ricochet like LR, couple with the slower velocity than subsonic rounds and much lighter projectiles the air falls of way way faster than LR, Making the air safer to use in sensitive areas

There’s lots of different reasons why FAC air suits more than LR, if all your doing is rabbits out on open ground then yes LR is probably the better option but there lots and lots of scenarios the FAC air is better

No! It carries less energy ! FTlb is a reading of energy . You can get 30 ft lb and less .22 rf put the two side by side of the same ftlb and they are equal in ricochet potential . A CCI quiet .22 lr basically equals a 30 ftlb fac air pellet . you can get rf cartridges below the mentioned 30 ftlb and of course a lot higher than the std subsonic .

 

[Bowland blades]

Maybe the weirauch was better with them than most. Certainly never cleaned the barrel - always the issue with an under lever springer!!
I do have an air arms s410 now but gas bottle run out and needs retesting so it’s gathering dust in the cabinet.
Must get it sorted as it’s a sweet rifle.
Might also buy a few thousand pellets!!!

I shot a FWB sport my pall a HW80 at said time . They where actually pants compared to the lead , i think one or the other was re-invented later on ( as a much improved version) and again they flopped ! The sabo had excellent penetration but the quarry normally got away to die slowly or perhaps recover . Of course they where more expensive which perhaps killed them faster than the reputation lost

 

[cooper89]

No! It carries less energy ! FTlb is a reading of energy . You can get 30 ft lb and less .22 rf put the two side by side of the same ftlb and they are equal in ricochet potential . A CCI quiet .22 lr basically equals a 30 ftlb fac air pellet . you can get rf cartridges below the mentioned 30 ftlb and of course a lot higher than the std subsonic

Yes equal energy at the muzzle, but a 30gr LR bullet is always going to carry more energy further out than a 16gr pellet, added to the fact most pellets are very soft and not a solid lump of lead like most LR bullets there not comparable in that way

Also let’s see those 22Lr bullets taking stuff at 100y as I know my FAC air is more than capable of

 

[Smellydog]

The trouble with sub 12 today is that most new air rifles are no where near 12ft/lb!.
When I were a lad most new 22 air rifles did 600+fps out the box. Now you're lucky if you get 550!

 

[Kevgun]

I am "into" it and I have .177 12 ft lbs, .20 12 ft lbs . 22 12 ft lbs In FAC I have .20 30 ft lbs .25 FX Impact M3 not had it long enough to see if it's any good yet, but it seems a lot of faffing to get them to shoot how you want with slugs and I have a .30 FAC FX Bobcat Mk2 85 ft lbs. I do a pest control job at a Racing stables In and out of Barns, inside I use a Brocock Compatto because you can turn these down to 6ft lbs

So if your shooting at a Pigeon on the Rafters Head shots are best and if you miss there is no Hole in the Roof, Outside I use a Theoben Rapid Mk2 in .177 12 Ft lbs for shots out to 50 yards, anything beyond that then it's the Theoben Rapid Mk2 .20 FAC quite Happy to Take shots at 80 Yards plus Have stretched it to 100 yards on a couple of occasions but try and keep it sensible. So there is no one does all Air Rifle I chose the one for the Job. Having tried .177 FAC it is the one I'd leave on the shelve, they just poke holes through things.

 

[TringSaint]

I am "into" it and I have .177 12 ft lbs, .20 12 ft lbs . 22 12 ft lbs In FAC I have .20 30 ft lbs .25 FX Impact M3 not had it long enough to see if it's any good yet, but it seems a lot of faffing to get them to shoot how you want with slugs and I have a .30 FAC FX Bobcat Mk2 85 ft lbs. I do a pest control job at a Racing stables In and out of Barns, inside I use a Brocock Compatto because you can turn these down to 6ft lbs

So if your shooting at a Pigeon on the Rafters Head shots are best and if you miss there is no Hole in the Roof, Outside I use a Theoben Rapid Mk2 in .177 12 Ft lbs for shots out to 50 yards, anything beyond that then it's the Theoben Rapid Mk2 .20 FAC quite Happy to Take shots at 80 Yards plus Have stretched it to 100 yards on a couple of occasions but try and keep it sensible. So there is no one does all Air Rifle I chose the one for the Job. Having tried .177 FAC it is the one I'd leave on the shelve, they just poke holes through things.

Impressive shooting with an air rifle!

 

[Bowland blades]

Yes equal energy at the muzzle, but a 30gr LR bullet is always going to carry more energy further out than a 16gr pellet, added to the fact most pellets are very soft and not a solid lump of lead like most LR bullets there not comparable in that way

Also let’s see those 22Lr bullets taking stuff at 100y as I know my FAC air is more than capable of

oh they are capable but the drop will be greater , wind somewhat less . At range the extra energy helps not hinders as does the true bullet shape . look up whats occuring with higher power slugs bullet shaped from high power PCP air . Windages are a bigger challenge using std pellets and am well aware of the longer range accuraccy of 12 ft lb and 30 ftlb air under the right conditions and a good pellet and bore that get on a 40mm field target can be consistently hit with 12 ftlb . I have actually done it fairly regular on those very still days when i used to shoot FTR it was a must do when the weather played nice for it .
Dont get me wrong here i am a long term airgun fan for many tasks but i do think .22 lr with its range of ammo is better for killing stuff and a massive amount less hassle, maintenance and cost .
15 ftlb .22 cal air is my favourite of all the airpower . preferably in a break barrel because its the easiest and fastest to load with the least amount of field hassle ( like leaks in a pcp and other equipment fails they seem to suffer and i can always just plain pick one up take it outside and kill something small that needs killing ) .
Not forcing my view btw just disagreeing from a personal perspective and my own past experience from the late 70s onwards
I dont get your last point as i am confident to head shoot rabbits at 140 yards and often carry a mag with 40 grain cci velocitors for stuff over the 100 , modern eley subs seem to loose their accuraccy after 80 yards .

 

[cooper89]

oh they are capable but the drop will be greater , wind somewhat less . At range the extra energy helps not hinders as does the true bullet shape . look up whats occuring with higher power slugs bullet shaped from high power PCP air . Windages are a bigger challenge using std pellets and am well aware of the longer range accuraccy of 12 ft lb and 30 ftlb air under the right conditions and a good pellet and bore that get on a 40mm field target can be consistently hit with 12 ftlb . I have actually done it fairly regular on those very still days when i used to shoot FTR it was a must do when the weather played nice for it .
Dont get me wrong here i am a long term airgun fan for many tasks but i do think .22 lr with its range of ammo is better for killing stuff and a massive amount less hassle, maintenance and cost .
15 ftlb .22 cal air is my favourite of all the airpower . preferably in a break barrel because its the easiest and fastest to load with the least amount of field hassle ( like leaks in a pcp and other equipment fails they seem to suffer and i can always just plain pick one up take it outside and kill something small that needs killing ) .
Not forcing my view btw just disagreeing from a personal perspective and my own past experience from the late 70s onwards
I dont get your last point as i am confident to head shoot rabbits at 140 yards and often carry a mag with 40 grain cci velocitors for stuff over the 100 , modern eley subs seem to loose their accuraccy after 80 yards .

Just on the last point there we then aren’t comparing 30ftlb air like for like with 22LR are we? Like I said before there multiple scenarios even at range that FAC air is the better choice, there all tools for a job at the end of the day and just like spanner’s we choose the best one suited to the task at hand

I’m not advocating air is superior in all cases by any means, I have 22LR myself also and do agree it’s much easier and less hassle than air in a lot of ways and I still use my LR where it’s the better option

 

[Bowland blades]

Just on the last point there we then aren’t comparing 30ftlb air like for like with 22LR are we? Like I said before there multiple scenarios even at range that FAC air is the better choice, there all tools for a job at the end of the day and just like spanner’s we choose the best one suited to the task at hand

I’m not advocating air is superior in all cases by any means, I have 22LR myself also and do agree it’s much easier and less hassle than air in a lot of ways and I still use my LR where it’s the better option

They can be ! Today there are Airguns folks take Hogs and deer with and also very low power home gallery rounds for the 22 lr
personally speaking i like an airgun in the 12-15 ft lb range as that's ideal for my own needs . feral pigeons in barns or rabbits in gardens
22LR i like with cci quiets ( target spec actually ) as they dont over travel or pose risk beyond the manageable , so long as you can be assured of the fall out zone is clear . 22 subsonic for general use of rabbit in volume beyond practical for small cf and of course they are real cheap to feed
cci velocitors are my general go to around here on the moor , just enough for a fox that wanders into suitable range and bunnies to 140-150 when the wind plays nice .
Not everyone is like me though and not all of us has land that suits , for me 80-90% of my pest control would be done with the 22 hornet through the course of a year . The higher power fac airgun i have had and they just didn't fill a niche well enough for my need