Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Happy to discuss further if you PM me and we can take from there.
Medical form
- Thread starter Benelli m2
- Start date
Thank you. Happy to discuss further if you PM me and we can take from there.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
That is indeed confusing and I will take that up with the firearms team on Monday.
If you are a BASC member and need any advice on your renewal feel free to contact our firearms team.
https://basc.org.uk/firearms/contact-the-firearms-dept/
Orion
Well-Known Member
Well I don’t mind sending a PM about the first point if you don’t want to respond on the open forum, but what about the future renewal cycles once we’ve all been through the medical evidence fiasco first time around?
Presumably we will all then be subject to ‘continuous monitoring’ so there will no longer be a requirement to pay GPs again? Or has that not been considered?
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
I have always found phone calls or face to face discussion on policy issues most productive and I hope we can discuss further following a PM.
As regards your first point, we have been challenging the police forces as posted earlier. This has been very time consuming as we are dealing with force level policy deviations in 11 different forces now and there is no quick fix unfortunately given the legal background that I have explained earlier.
As regards your second point, where police forces have introduced mandatory GP involvement for the applicant there is no obligation on the GPs to take part or to place an encoded reminder on our medical records.
The proposed new Home Office guidance recently consulted would encourage all police forces to introduce mandatory GP involvement for applicants but this would not place any obligations on GPs to take part or to place encoded reminders on our medical records. Therefore, if nothing changes with the current direction of travel it is likely that we would need GP verification letters at every renewal and to pay for that service.
Orion
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the reply Connor.
So, given the non-statutory, and possibly very random, semi-involvement of the medical profession in the ‘medical evidence’ procedure, the whole premise of how it was originally envisioned to operate has now gone completely and utterly out of the window then?
It’s now just another stick to beat lawful firearms users with and any talk of benefits to all - least of all shooters - is simply a sham.
So, given the non-statutory, and possibly very random, semi-involvement of the medical profession in the ‘medical evidence’ procedure, the whole premise of how it was originally envisioned to operate has now gone completely and utterly out of the window then?
It’s now just another stick to beat lawful firearms users with and any talk of benefits to all - least of all shooters - is simply a sham.
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Connor, if that is the case, why answer only SOME of the issues or questions raised ?
I suspect many you do not have adequate answers to and answering would be rather too complex.
What BASC was originally trying to achieve, 10 years licences (which they bargained away the present system for) unfortunately means that BASC made a total wakes of it. However you package it and however sincere you appear to be about talking and discussing, That fact will not change.
Trying to make a 'silk purse out of a sow's ear' is typical of BASC but I suggest, many have 'seen the wood for the trees'.
No, I do not wish to discuss it., Until BASC ----
I suspect many you do not have adequate answers to and answering would be rather too complex.
What BASC was originally trying to achieve, 10 years licences (which they bargained away the present system for) unfortunately means that BASC made a total wakes of it. However you package it and however sincere you appear to be about talking and discussing, That fact will not change.
Trying to make a 'silk purse out of a sow's ear' is typical of BASC but I suggest, many have 'seen the wood for the trees'.
No, I do not wish to discuss it., Until BASC ----
Smokedude
Well-Known Member
Thanks yes I’m a member.....not a happy one at present. But your better than having nothing.
Well the surgery just sent it to me.....completely ignored the police form and filled out there own one??? I’m speechless.
Am I The only sane one on this merry go round?
good Job im not on any prescription from the surgery......they can’t even read simple instructions which I did leave with them
waste of my time!This just cannot work and the reason why is part of my appeal to the IOPC which has now been issued an appeal number.
Why can it not work? Because medcert and any other alternative GP only has access to your GP online Summary Care Records (SCR). These records are very unlikely to be a complete record of your medical history, unless you are very young and are just that a Summary which is typically one or two line entries with reason for seeing GP, medication, repeat prescriptions, blood pressure etc.
In my own case they cover only 1/3 of my life, the other years are still in Lloyd George paper record form.
And ONLY your own registered GP will have access to these.
So as in my email I sent to medcert which they have yet to reply to, how can they complete the Kent medical template letter that states if “I have EVER been diagnosed with or been treated for any of the following conditions/illnesses”
Clearly they cannot, however if they could them why would one of the shooting organisations not then employ a GP/s and offer the service to their members at cost? Rather than a for profit business which clearly medcert is.
Also if you need to use medcert or an alternative GP then it is almost certain no medical flag will be added to your medical records that you own firearms, making the process just a one day in five year MOT.
As I have said before the police don’t care if the process is broken just so long as from any GP they get that letter so if god forbid the worst happens they would be on TV and in the media waving the letter saying not our fault and calling for more bans on gun ownership.
The October issue of the CPSA pull magazine plugged medcert but included nothing about any response they made to the HO consultation on firearms which closed in September, I got reply from the CPSA CEO may be I will publish it on the forum. As we keep saying it is well past the time for nice words by the shooting organisations and time they issued a pre-action protocol judicial review letter to one of the police forces not following the HOG2016. After all what have they got to lose?
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So it reasonable for the police to call us a liar? When will the DVLA ask for the same GP medical declaration when applying for a driving licence?
As the PM just found out nobody is above the law not even chief constables. It is time to take the legal action
What do you need or what are you waiting for ? Or what are you frighten about? By your own omission potential certificate numbers could significantly fall over the next few years is this what you want? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking legal action.
Has Surrey Police not just joined the Club this week?
BASC will NOT do anything. The police are just doing what they are allowed to do according to BASC. Just pay up and rejoin BASC. Wait for the next scandal or the next failure. Or you could ring or e-mail Connor who may find it better to talk rather than give yet more exposure to an increasingly embarrassing position.
This from Connor sums it up concisely;
The proposed new Home Office guidance recently consulted would encourage all police forces to introduce mandatory GP involvement for applicants but this would not place any obligations on GPs to take part or to place encoded reminders on our medical records. Therefore, if nothing changes with the current direction of travel it is likely that we would need GP verification letters at every renewal and to pay for that service.
YOU, of course couldnt work this out for yourselves any more than BASC can see whats wrong with this statement.
"shooting organisations and time they issued a pre-action protocol judicial review letter to one of the police forces not following the HOG2016. After all what have they got to lose?" Someone who is not blinded by smoke and mirrors.
I suggest they think they still have credibility with senior police officers, or their legal insurance isn't much good
This from Connor sums it up concisely;
The proposed new Home Office guidance recently consulted would encourage all police forces to introduce mandatory GP involvement for applicants but this would not place any obligations on GPs to take part or to place encoded reminders on our medical records. Therefore, if nothing changes with the current direction of travel it is likely that we would need GP verification letters at every renewal and to pay for that service.
YOU, of course couldnt work this out for yourselves any more than BASC can see whats wrong with this statement.
"shooting organisations and time they issued a pre-action protocol judicial review letter to one of the police forces not following the HOG2016. After all what have they got to lose?" Someone who is not blinded by smoke and mirrors.
I suggest they think they still have credibility with senior police officers, or their legal insurance isn't much good
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
What we are missing is a proper right of appeal in the firearm licensing system. That doesn’t involve spending thousands in legal fees.
We have it for driving license issues. Or benefits and many other things that involve Government departments.
So why not firearms licensing?
It would go a long way to stopping Chief Constables pleasing themselves. Rather than following the guidelines like they should.
All this cover your backside bit getting Doctors involved.
They already have a get out clause. Follow the guidelines, if something then goes wrong. You point the finger at the author of said guidelines.
This medical information thing is a farce. My Doctor doesn’t know me. The sum total they know is I have had a bad back for years and I have hereditary high blood pressure.
My first Doctor knew me and my family well. You went in and the first question was usually how is your Dad Mum etc. Then it was and why are you here.
My Doctors have a problem with basic communication. We have mobile and landline phones email and text. But method of choice is the little slip that comes with your prescription. What hope is there that they can manage to run any system of monitoring and informing the police should the need arise.
A a BASC member I want some visible action. Legal challenges work just ask Packham and Co. It’s time to stop thinking they are going to do us any favours. They are not our friends and certainly shouldn’t be treated as such.
Let’s get the debacle sorted.
As it is the only thing I can see negotiated as badly is Brexit. Not something that you should aspire to.
We have it for driving license issues. Or benefits and many other things that involve Government departments.
So why not firearms licensing?
It would go a long way to stopping Chief Constables pleasing themselves. Rather than following the guidelines like they should.
All this cover your backside bit getting Doctors involved.
They already have a get out clause. Follow the guidelines, if something then goes wrong. You point the finger at the author of said guidelines.
This medical information thing is a farce. My Doctor doesn’t know me. The sum total they know is I have had a bad back for years and I have hereditary high blood pressure.
My first Doctor knew me and my family well. You went in and the first question was usually how is your Dad Mum etc. Then it was and why are you here.
My Doctors have a problem with basic communication. We have mobile and landline phones email and text. But method of choice is the little slip that comes with your prescription. What hope is there that they can manage to run any system of monitoring and informing the police should the need arise.
A a BASC member I want some visible action. Legal challenges work just ask Packham and Co. It’s time to stop thinking they are going to do us any favours. They are not our friends and certainly shouldn’t be treated as such.
Let’s get the debacle sorted.
As it is the only thing I can see negotiated as badly is Brexit. Not something that you should aspire to.
Yep I to don’t know my GP, last time I made an appointment for a minor knee problem to see the GP when I arrived at the surgery I ended up seeing the nurse.
We do have a right of appeal via the Crime Commissioner Office, courts but it is costly and slow, then we have the Independent Office of Police Conduct (IOPC) and then the judicial review process.
Traditionally we as firearms owners have I would say also taken the approach let’s not make a noise go softly softly otherwise at a personal level you may lose your firearms, but as history has shown this has got us know where.
Yes BASC may be frightened of losing their seat at the various meeting they attend around the country I was surprised to find they meet regularly with others at a Kent FLAG, Firearms Licensing Advisory Group, meeting BASC had three representatives at the March 2019 meeting.
The minutes are marked In red RESTRICTED. Why is this? Given the FELWG minutes are published for all to see.
What’s that saying, it is better to have tried and failed then to have never tried at all?
Come on BASC it is time for legal action send that pre action judicial review protocol letter to one of the forces
Or risk losing a lot of members over the coming years.
Clearly Kent never sent their reason not to align with HOG2016 to the head of the FELWG as I never got a response to my FOI request other than we will get back to you within 20days which they never did.
We do have a right of appeal via the Crime Commissioner Office, courts but it is costly and slow, then we have the Independent Office of Police Conduct (IOPC) and then the judicial review process.
Traditionally we as firearms owners have I would say also taken the approach let’s not make a noise go softly softly otherwise at a personal level you may lose your firearms, but as history has shown this has got us know where.
Yes BASC may be frightened of losing their seat at the various meeting they attend around the country I was surprised to find they meet regularly with others at a Kent FLAG, Firearms Licensing Advisory Group, meeting BASC had three representatives at the March 2019 meeting.
The minutes are marked In red RESTRICTED. Why is this? Given the FELWG minutes are published for all to see.
What’s that saying, it is better to have tried and failed then to have never tried at all?
Come on BASC it is time for legal action send that pre action judicial review protocol letter to one of the forces
Or risk losing a lot of members over the coming years.
Clearly Kent never sent their reason not to align with HOG2016 to the head of the FELWG as I never got a response to my FOI request other than we will get back to you within 20days which they never did.
Benelli m2
Well-Known Member
That Voice has gone into mute mode
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Not true. The latest updates are here:
https://basc.org.uk/med
https://basc.org.uk/firearmsconsultation/
https://basc.org.uk/blog/offbeat/whats-the-problem-with-firearms-licensing/
See also latest updates in BASC's membership magazine.
1. Still reserving the right take legal action - forgive me suggesting it wont happen
2. Now asking people who renew in the affected police areas where medicals are 'mandatory' to write to their MP's - test cases for BASC to take are no longer required - apparently.
3. A summary of the position BASC is now taking to close a very damaged and potentially unworkable stable door.
This is simply reaction and rather flawed IMHO.
I would not offer this as a defence against the charge that BASC isnt doing much worthwhile.
Perhaps other people see this differently - nice staff picture for those who remember 'that thread'.
2. Now asking people who renew in the affected police areas where medicals are 'mandatory' to write to their MP's - test cases for BASC to take are no longer required - apparently.
3. A summary of the position BASC is now taking to close a very damaged and potentially unworkable stable door.
This is simply reaction and rather flawed IMHO.
I would not offer this as a defence against the charge that BASC isnt doing much worthwhile.
Perhaps other people see this differently - nice staff picture for those who remember 'that thread'.
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