Speculative questions about long range centrefire

[Sheprador1973]

Hi all. Hope you're having a good weekend?

just thought I'd ask...sure it's been covered but I have searched here and on the net a lot.

im looking in future to get involved in long range 'marksmanship' with a centrefire when the time comes. Always been fascinated by it tbh. So as we do, I'm thinking which rifle/which calibre. Looked briefly into f-class but realised I'm not that competitive...or wealthy! So what I'm looking into is this:

A deer legal rifle/calibre that I can reload for easily & affordably with 'moderate' recoil.

Left handed action & stock (or ambi)

Between 243 and 308 (not thrilled about rebarrelling too often as a factor)

long varmint barrel (know they're heavier but not concerned).

Affordsble (to me) as I'm not likely to ever have £ to burn.

A rifle/cal that I can shoot a reasonably long range at fox, rabbit & small deer species.

As above but for larger species for the odd paid stalk at sensible ranges.

As above that I can shoot at Lydd/Bisley to approaching 1000yrds informally for fun without frustration at the rifles limitations.



The contenders so far through looking around a lot include:

Rem 700 sps varmint - lots of good reports but questions over price in the U.K. & build quality.

Howa 1500 varmint - not been able to find that much info/mixed reviews.

Tikka T3x varmint - very good user reports but HATE the stock (just personal).

CZ5** - good user reports and cheap but limited LH options.


As an afterthought I'm thinking of a wood/synthetic stocked factory rifle for the field (to avoid the Rambo effect)and maybe a Boyd's pro varmint (£)or McMillan A3/5 (£££) along the line to swap into for the range work. (Not going into optics cos that's a whole other ball game I know).

Your thoughts would be much appreciated

 

[Ferryman]

I have the Remington 700 SPS in .308 with the varmint barrel, swapped out the trigger for a Huber roller unit, mounted the US Optics Scope that was on my .300 win Mag custom and it will reach out to a 1000 yards.
I have read a lot of negative comments about Rem 700's but personally I have not had any problems with the 4 that I have owned (still have 2)

 

[nun_hunter]

More so with the Rem 700 but also with the Tika you have plenty of aftermarket options which will allow you to upgrade parts as your funds allow and as your shooting style and need change too. Are you only looking at 243 and 308 or something between them? If you want to stretch to 1000yards then one of the 6.5s would be an option, Creedmoor being my favorite with the 140 grain or 143 ELD-X would cover all your deer and long range targets and varmints too.

 

[Sheprador1973]

Thank you guys...very interesting. The Rem 700 tends to polarise opinions I'm realising! And yes, happy to consider 'inbetween' cals, 6.5s etc.

Forgot to mention that it would have to be factory available in a twist rate to get 'out there'.

That and I cannot stand the look of stainless barrels. Fussy? Me?

 

[Tim.243]

Both of my 700's are bog standard, only shoot quarry with factory rounds so sub 300, however they feed fine, and go bang.....well wooshhhhhh lol

I have all ways shot r/h rifles although being l/h....



Tim.243

 

[Vipa]

6.5 x whatever or .308... if you get into the target shooting side of things the driving factor will be availability of components/ammo which plants the .308 squarely in the crosshairs.. a true 1,000m calibre and a cracking deer calibre too..

 

[Kalahari]

Some of the 7mm seem to have very efficient bullets.

David.

 

[Laurie]

6.5 x whatever or .308... if you get into the target shooting side of things the driving factor will be availability of components/ammo which plants the .308 squarely in the crosshairs.. a true 1,000m calibre and a cracking deer calibre too..

Top quality components are available in all calibres these days, and in terms of 'form factor' values (a measure of how much air-drag the bullet shape generates, the better 6,5s and 7s are substantially lower (ie better) than the best of the 30-calibre bullets.

The small to mid size 6.5s pee all over 308 these days at long ranges ballistically - 6.5X47L, 260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5X55 will all perform well at 1,000 from 24/26-inch barrels. 308 Win cannot keep bullets above transonic speeds from a 24-inch barrel at 1,000 and it takes the combination of a very high BC (which usually equates to expensive) and a very hot load to keep them supersonic at all at this distance. That's why TR and FTR rifles all have 30-32 inch barrels - to get the essential MVs.

As Kalahari says, the sevens have a lot going for them although it's probably more difficult to get a multi-purpose rig and cartridge. I shoot 7mm-08 and 284 up to 1,000 for instance, but the rifles are all long-freebore jobs to use the heavier high-BC bullets. the 7-08 ammo's COALs run at 2.95-3.00 inches for instance instead of the SAAMI 2.800 inch to use the 160gn Sierra TMK and Berger 168gn VLD; the 284 is throated for 180s.

At 600, even 800 yards, almost anything within reason can be used. Beyond there, life gets very much harder and the ballistics requirements become very demanding. The 6.5X47L is widely used in Bench Rest and F-Class competition out to 1,000 often in sound-moderated rifles that double up for foxes and deer. They tend to be longer barrelled and heavier than I would be happy to hump around all day though. A chap called Alan Seagrave wins 'Factory Class' 600 and 1,000 yard UKBRA benchrest matches at Diggle most fixtures with a Heavy Varmint Tikka in 6.5X55mm and often embarrasses the owners of the 17lb custom 'Light Guns' while about it.

 

[Boomerang]

Edit - wrote this before reading Laurie's post above

Some thoughts:

LR projects products
You can find him YouTube but his Long Range Shooting from Scratch is a good start.

Precision Rifle Shooting has a Bolt Gun Production division which is intended for a regular guy to compete in. They are restrictive to a US$4,000 spend for gun and optics (50/50 split). Their rule book listed the approved OEM and models in Appendix 3 - see link below - may help you further research your choice.

https://www.precisionrifleseries.com/static/media/uploads/prs_rules.pdf

Have you thought about a composite stock with the "guts" coming from either your chosen OEM or custom providers. Why:

- Stock fit is key for paper or quarry - I like the look of KKC stocks
- Chamber sizing to bullet seating length - start with a production barrel and get the most out of it you can in terms of accuracy and precision for your desired range(s) as you learn. If you really get the bug you may want to research how to improve a given component (e.g. barrel). OEM's make barrels to accommodate the smallest to largest bullet sizes for any given calibre. For precision you will only want a barrel to fit your chosen load but that may go against the multi purpose roles of your criteria.
- provided that fits within your budget.

Have you read some of Bryan Litz's research - I think it is excellent work - there is an article that talks about why 6 and 6.5 are favoured over .308 (ie find the heaviest/optimal bullet weight for the least amount of recoil).

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/ABDOC110_WhatWrong30Cal.pdf

Loads of current or ex-servicemen stick with military calibres (.308 equiv). With their levels of training & experience they can make it perform exceptional well. There are numerous LR competitions that are built around it. As a paper punching calibre it may not be optimal but there is certainly usually always a good supply of cheap components.

Lots of arguments/opinions/rants over which is "the" 6mm or 6.5mm calibre (e.g. 6.5 Creedmore vs 6.5x47 vs 6.5x55) all very personal arguments - then substitute 6mm in that list and start again. Perhaps some "objective" data is to look at the results of your chosen format and who was using what gear....the PRS guys appear to be favouring 6mm...I already own a 6.5x55 so I am biased towards the "original" in a modern action - and it is a great deer calibre, easy to reload and good supply of components but not as cheap as .308 - but just an opinion.

Long-Range Calibers Cartridges: What The Pros Use - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

all of which has to be taken with a pinch of salt as the PRS is US movement and the volume of available gear is mind blowing - another consideration when choosing the rifle and calibre - can you source the components you need at a affordable cost.

If you can, find a range or even better a long distance range where you can trial various different rifles/calibres before you decide - there are a few across the UK...Google 'em

Good luck with your research - end of my ramblings - will be interested to hear what you finally choose....

 

[User00033]

Forgot to mention that it would have to be factory available in a twist rate to get 'out there'.

This is by far the most limiting factor if you have your heart set on 1000yds. As you know, the fast majority of mid-range rifle platforms are set up to traditional hunting projectile specs.

As a newbie long ranger myself I have found it very hard to find a mid-range $$$, 1000yds capable factory config that will stabilise the long tapered bullets (ELD, VLD etc) and have the ability to chamber the inevitable increase in COAL above SAAMI.

E.g. The standard 1:10 twist of the .243 limits you to traditional hunting bullets up to ~1.05" length / 100gn weight, and there's lots of variation from rifle to rifle either side of that threshold.

After many months of reading and going round in circles I've pretty much concluded that the best way forward for me is to buy a solid rifle second hand and rebarrel to the required twist rate for the type of modern ELD/VLD bullets I want to shoot. Cost wise this is going to roughly equate buying new. I really don't want to spend a fortune on a rifle that I'll only use once in a while. 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, there are options in all of these calibres that will achieve the objective. Still haven't made up my mind which one.

 

[NigelM]

This is by far the most limiting factor if you have your heart set on 1000yds. As you know, the fast majority of mid-range rifle platforms are set up to traditional hunting projectile specs.

As a newbie long ranger myself I have found it very hard to find a mid-range $$$, 1000yds capable factory config that will stabilise the long tapered bullets (ELD, VLD etc) and have the ability to chamber the inevitable increase in COAL above SAAMI.

E.g. The standard 1:10 twist of the .243 limits you to traditional hunting bullets up to ~1.05" length / 100gn weight, and there's lots of variation from rifle to rifle either side of that threshold.

After many months of reading and going round in circles I've pretty much concluded that the best way forward for me is to buy a solid rifle second hand and rebarrel to the required twist rate for the type of modern ELD/VLD bullets I want to shoot. Cost wise this is going to roughly equate buying new. I really don't want to spend a fortune on a rifle that I'll only use once in a while. 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, there are options in all of these calibres that will achieve the objective. Still haven't made up my mind which one.

+1

I run a 6mm 10 twist (6*47 Lapua) which will not shoot anything longer than a Sierra 100 SPT. Will not stretch out there, just not slippery enough.

The 6.5 Lapua is 8.5 twist and will shoot 130 Sciroccos and will stretch out there for paper punching but is down at 600 ftlb of energy when it gets there.

The 280AI is 9 twist and shoots a 160 TMK. At 1000 meters it's running 850 ftlb of energy. This is my LR rig. Both 6.5 and 280AI are well above the speed of sound at 1000 meters.

The 6.5 is a pussycat to shoot and very accurate. The 280AI packs a bit more punch and your technique has to be much better. The recoil doesn't let you get away with much if you are looking for LR accuracy.

If you go to 300WM your technique has to be very good, especially if you're running a hunting weight rifle. Same goes for anything else 300 WM based, like the 7mm Practical, which is probably the ultimate LR chambering if you are not going to go silly.

Time again, all things considered, I would go with a 7.5 twist 6.5 running 140's or an 8 twist 7mm running 180's. No need to go any bigger. A second hand Rem 700, blueprinted and fitted with a new barrel to your spec is the economical way to do it. As far as chamberings are concerned, 6.5 Lapua works, as does 260 or 260AI for a bit of extra push. 6.5-06 or 6.5-284 if you really want to pack a punch, but beware barrel burn out. In 7mm I love the 280AI, tried 7mmRM but hated it - very harsh to shoot.

Just one opinion and there will be plenty of others. Hope it helps.

 

[Cloudhopper]

Why does it have to be 1000yds? What's more important to you, long range or deer stalking?

I've just started looking at longer range shooting using my Sako 85 in .308. The police/military use 7.62/308 out to 800m, if I can match that performance I'm happy; so far tried it at 600m without any problems. Work out the firing solution using Strelok or Shooter Ballistics and dial it in; virtually spot on with elevation straight off although windage take more practice. A .308 Win hits harder than a 6.5, for red hinds or the like I know what I'd rather be using.
CH

 

[User00033]

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]One of the most important variables to model for all the options you are considering (calibre, load & projectile combinations) is downrange energy. As NigelM says about his .280, its 30% up on his 6.5x47mm. Even the standard 150gr .308 factory loads don't look that flash out at 800m Cloudhopper, you'll need to use quite hot loads and 175-180gr pills minimum to get the job done, with a fair bit of risk attached if using a standard hunting rifle. Even I'd struggle to justify red hinds at 800m with my .308, with 2600fps 178gr ELD-X. That's 7mm RM / .30 cal mag territory, in my opinion.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]Not the time or place to raise "ethical killing", I know we all differ on the definition, and over here in NZ the defintion is definitely not sub-300m. Its all about having the right tool, skills and attitude to meet the objective. So Sheprador mate, when you say "a rifle/cal that I can shoot a reasonably long range at fox, rabbit & small deer species", my immediate response is:[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]a) Technically, long range is >750m. Short range is up to ~300m, medium range is the in between. Again, definitions vary but not by a lot. So you need to decide on what "reasonably long range is" for you, and make sure your choice of calibre/load/projectile can deliver the right amount of energy, penetration and expansion to cleanly kill the largest of your target species.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]b) Shooting rabbits with the same rifle as you want to shoot small deer with means you will be vapourizing bunnies which can be fun but is a lot more fun/challenging/cheaper with a small bore varmint rifle. Medium range (250-400m) small game shooting (varminting) is my absolute favourite sport. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]c) Paper punching accuracy at 1,000m is the domain of expensive tricked up BR rifles, not varmint contour lower mid-range hunting rifles. Again, my opinion only. Sounds to me like you're hunting the Holy Grail of rifles... a cheapish, off the shelf, deadly accurate, punch packing, clean killing, 1000 yarder. I might be attracting all sorts of wrath here, but I don't think that rifle exists off the shelf. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=.SF UI Text]
[/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]Have a look at MarkAndSam AfterWork youtube channel if you haven't already. Mark drones on a bit but he's bloody good at what he does and he's got some interesting videos that get right into the detail of setting up a long ranger. There are several channels of the same ilk.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=.SF UI Text]
[/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]BTW you haven't mentioned glass. Gonna cost minimum 100% of the rifle cost, more like 200% for something half decent![/FONT][/FONT][FONT=.SF UI Text]
[/FONT]

 

[topscots1]

I would consider the Bergara HMR this to me seems the factory rifle that will suit your needs. I am toying with the idea of one in 6.5 creedenmore however the rifle is also available in 308. This is a remington 700 footprint should you wish to upgrade triggers e.t.c however all i have read is positive on a very reasonably priced rifle out of the box.

 

[Sheprador1973]

This is by far the most limiting factor if you have your heart set on 1000yds. As you know, the fast majority of mid-range rifle platforms are set up to traditional hunting projectile specs.

As a newbie long ranger myself I have found it very hard to find a mid-range $$$, 1000yds capable factory config that will stabilise the long tapered bullets (ELD, VLD etc) and have the ability to chamber the inevitable increase in COAL above SAAMI.

E.g. The standard 1:10 twist of the .243 limits you to traditional hunting bullets up to ~1.05" length / 100gn weight, and there's lots of variation from rifle to rifle either side of that threshold.

After many months of reading and going round in circles I've pretty much concluded that the best way forward for me is to buy a solid rifle second hand and rebarrel to the required twist rate for the type of modern ELD/VLD bullets I want to shoot. Cost wise this is going to roughly equate buying new. I really don't want to spend a fortune on a rifle that I'll only use once in a while. 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, there are options in all of these calibres that will achieve the objective. Still haven't made up my mind which one.

Thank you mate....very useful and interesting

 

[Sheprador1973]

Why does it have to be 1000yds? What's more important to you, long range or deer stalking?

I've just started looking at longer range shooting using my Sako 85 in .308. The police/military use 7.62/308 out to 800m, if I can match that performance I'm happy; so far tried it at 600m without any problems. Work out the firing solution using Strelok or Shooter Ballistics and dial it in; virtually spot on with elevation straight off although windage take more practice. A .308 Win hits harder than a 6.5, for red hinds or the like I know what I'd rather be using.
CH

1000 yards is an arbitrary figure. Sounds both challenging an fun. Would be happy with 600-800 yards if much more realistic. Many thanks

 

[Sheprador1973]

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]One of the most important variables to model for all the options you are considering (calibre, load & projectile combinations) is downrange energy. As NigelM says about his .280, its 30% up on his 6.5x47mm. Even the standard 150gr .308 factory loads don't look that flash out at 800m Cloudhopper, you'll need to use quite hot loads and 175-180gr pills minimum to get the job done, with a fair bit of risk attached if using a standard hunting rifle. Even I'd struggle to justify red hinds at 800m with my .308, with 2600fps 178gr ELD-X. That's 7mm RM / .30 cal mag territory, in my opinion.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]Not the time or place to raise "ethical killing", I know we all differ on the definition, and over here in NZ the defintion is definitely not sub-300m. Its all about having the right tool, skills and attitude to meet the objective. So Sheprador mate, when you say "a rifle/cal that I can shoot a reasonably long range at fox, rabbit & small deer species", my immediate response is:[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]a) Technically, long range is >750m. Short range is up to ~300m, medium range is the in between. Again, definitions vary but not by a lot. So you need to decide on what "reasonably long range is" for you, and make sure your choice of calibre/load/projectile can deliver the right amount of energy, penetration and expansion to cleanly kill the largest of your target species.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]b) Shooting rabbits with the same rifle as you want to shoot small deer with means you will be vapourizing bunnies which can be fun but is a lot more fun/challenging/cheaper with a small bore varmint rifle. Medium range (250-400m) small game shooting (varminting) is my absolute favourite sport. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]c) Paper punching accuracy at 1,000m is the domain of expensive tricked up BR rifles, not varmint contour lower mid-range hunting rifles. Again, my opinion only. Sounds to me like you're hunting the Holy Grail of rifles... a cheapish, off the shelf, deadly accurate, punch packing, clean killing, 1000 yarder. I might be attracting all sorts of wrath here, but I don't think that rifle exists off the shelf. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=.SF UI Text]
[/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]Have a look at MarkAndSam AfterWork youtube channel if you haven't already. Mark drones on a bit but he's bloody good at what he does and he's got some interesting videos that get right into the detail of setting up a long ranger. There are several channels of the same ilk.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=.SF UI Text]
[/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText]BTW you haven't mentioned glass. Gonna cost minimum 100% of the rifle cost, more like 200% for something half decent![/FONT][/FONT][FONT=.SF UI Text]
[/FONT]

Thank you. Think I need to clarify further:

When I say long range I mean target only so ethics don't really figure.

When I said longish range for pest species/varnints I should have said short to medium range. What my thinking was if I'm out with a centrefire rather than a rimmy, the capability to take the odd opportunist rabbit/fox/crow to keep the land owner happy.

I have factored the cost of glass but figure it's a whole other significant discussion.

Dont think I'm after the 'holy grail' at all. Not for formal competitive shooting and looking at the OP I think this is clear. More a solid factory rifle for hunting at short to medium range that I could take to a shooting range once in a while to stretch it out. I'm pretty sure that is achievable as many on here so just that. I understand that accuracy will have its limitations (directly related to £ probably) but hitting some paper or steel targets sounds like an accessible fun way to get into long range shooting, reading windage etc

Tgank you.

 

[Sheprador1973]

A couple of votes for the Rem 700. Any thoughts on the other rifles mentioned? Curious about views on the Tikka t3x varm and cz options in particular

 

[Sheprador1973]

The 6.5 Creedmoor has caught my attention too. Seems popular in the states but are reloadibg components available and affordable here in the U.K.? Thank you

 

[JTO]

A .284W with a 26" barrel might suit both uses, but you'll have to homeload.