The solid copper forum.

[angusb1]

I also see a greater likelihood of deer dropping to shot with larger diameter bullets. My .308 with 130g TTSX bullets almost invariably drops roe with chest shots but runners seem much more common with the 6.5x47 and 100g TTSX or 6.5x55 and 120g TTSX despite velocities being almost identical.

Interesting approach, to go for a larger calibre rather than a lower weight in the same calibre. This season I am moving from a .270 shooting 150gr lead at 2840fps to a 35 Whelen shooting Barnes 180gr TTSX copper at 2900fps. It is woodland stalking on red deer in Devon and I am hoping the size of our quarry will give me good expansion with the harder but larger bullets. I wasn't planning to shoot copper in the 35 Whelen but it came with some so I will try it out.

 

[Acm]

Interesting approach, to go for a larger calibre rather than a lower weight in the same calibre. This season I am moving from a .270 shooting 150gr lead at 2840fps to a 35 Whelen shooting Barnes 180gr TTSX copper at 2900fps. It is woodland stalking on red deer in Devon and I am hoping the size of our quarry will give me good expansion with the harder but larger bullets. I wasn't planning to shoot copper in the 35 Whelen but it came with some so I will try it out.

That’s a cool calibre, I bet it’ll work great.

 

[Merlyn]

I have had good results with the .243 Sako 80gn power head blade in a Blaser R8.
I was at the range last Friday chatting to a couple of chaps using a Garmin chrono, he offered to demo it for me, turns out after a bit of maths I'm only getting 1590 ft/lb. Needless to say, they still absolutely do the job. I was quite happy in blissful ignorance.

This has been my experience too. I don't home load so accepted the figures on the box, with reservation, and got very good results. They are certainly very accurate rounds. Then I was communicating via PM with another SD stalker, and discovered the figures you have quoted above. I had previously taken a couple of reds with them without problem. I never take long shots on my grounds due to the flat terrain around here in East Anglia.

 

[Selous]

I have seen great results with the slightly larger 250g TTSX in the .375H&H on Impala, Zebra and Kudu cow -about the same size as Red deer. Good expansion and wound channels. Keep us updated how you get on it sounds interesting.

 

[Heym SR20]

This has been my experience too. I don't home load so accepted the figures on the box, with reservation, and got very good results. They are certainly very accurate rounds. Then I was communicating via PM with another SD stalker, and discovered the figures you have quoted above. I had previously taken a couple of reds with them without problem. I never take long shots on my grounds due to the flat terrain around here in East Anglia.

Good results. Interesting re chronographs and actual versus published velocities. I wonder what these 243’s are doing with other bullets. With a 100gn bullet you need a velocity of a touch over 2800 fps to meet Scotland’s min of 1750 ft lbs of energy.

I wonder how many of the shorter barrelled 243’s meet the muzzle energy requirements regardless of whether they shoot lead or non lead bullets?

 

[Acm]

Good results. Interesting re chronographs and actual versus published velocities. I wonder what these 243’s are doing with other bullets. With a 100gn bullet you need a velocity of a touch over 2800 fps to meet Scotland’s min of 1750 ft lbs of energy.

I wonder how many of the shorter barrelled 243’s meet the muzzle energy requirements regardless of whether they shoot lead or non lead bullets?

I think most of us would agree it just doesn’t matter.

 

[Heym SR20]

I think most of us would agree it just doesn’t matter.

It just doesn’t matter until somebody finds out that your rifle is not deer legal, and this you are in breach of the Deer Acts which is an offence.

Will this happen - probably not. But if there was an incident or accident and insurance claims etc etc then the lawyers and police will look for any breech of legislation to negate their obligations or to prosecute.

At very least you are in breech of your FAC, which has a condition of lawful use. If you are using a cartridge that is below the legal minimums for the quarry you are shooting then that is an unlawful act.

And stating on a public forum that abidance by the law doesn’t matter is probably not too clever either.

 

[the_greenman]

Hi, Have you tried and of Lehigh’s bullets?
Ken.

I tried the 122gr lehigh defense in my 6.5cm. 20" barrel. Bullet went off like a grenade in the chest cavity. Shredded everything and popped the stomach. One of the petals was found in a haunch.
Tried some Geco zero in 7mm08 which again fragmented and shredded the surrounding meat.
Decided the non fragmenting types were for me so now use Fox, Barnes etc.

 

[Utectok]

I personally don’t think large slow calibres works as well with copper as lighter bullets pushed faster. This is the conventional wisdom and I concur. I seem to remember the energy formula favours speed as it used as a multiple. Basically speed has a much greater influence on energy than weight. I’m sure @Mungo will explain it better than me!

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

I personally don’t think large slow calibres works as well with copper as lighter bullets pushed faster. This is the conventional wisdom and I concur. I seem to remember the energy formula favours speed as it used as a multiple. Basically speed has a much greater influence on energy than weight. I’m sure @Mungo will explain it better than me!

But where speed is high in both cases, the larger calibres hit noticably harder though IMO.

 

[kenbro]

Ken.

 

[nun_hunter]

It just doesn’t matter until somebody finds out that your rifle is not deer legal, and this you are in breach of the Deer Acts which is an offence.

Will this happen - probably not. But if there was an incident or accident and insurance claims etc etc then the lawyers and police will look for any breech of legislation to negate their obligations or to prosecute.

At very least you are in breech of your FAC, which has a condition of lawful use. If you are using a cartridge that is below the legal minimums for the quarry you are shooting then that is an unlawful act.

And stating on a public forum that abidance by the law doesn’t matter is probably not too clever either.

How would they ever prove it? They could test your rifle after but that doesn't mean it produced the same velocities with a different batch or even different circumstances of clean barrel etc. No way to prove what speed the bullet was doing at the time of any alleged offence unless it was officially recorded which wouldn't happen.

Although it is a law it is pretty pointless as a short barrelled 243 not producing the legal energy at the muzzle would likely have more energy at time of impact at 50m than a legal 243 would at 250m yet it would be fine legally.

 

[nun_hunter]

I personally don’t think large slow calibres works as well with copper as lighter bullets pushed faster. This is the conventional wisdom and I concur. I seem to remember the energy formula favours speed as it used as a multiple. Basically speed has a much greater influence on energy than weight. I’m sure @Mungo will explain it better than me!

Bullet construction plays a huge part and is now more relevant with quite a few varieties of copper bullet compared to 10-15 years ago.

 

[Acm]

It just doesn’t matter until somebody finds out that your rifle is not deer legal, and this you are in breach of the Deer Acts which is an offence.

Will this happen - probably not. But if there was an incident or accident and insurance claims etc etc then the lawyers and police will look for any breech of legislation to negate their obligations or to prosecute.

At very least you are in breech of your FAC, which has a condition of lawful use. If you are using a cartridge that is below the legal minimums for the quarry you are shooting then that is an unlawful act.

And stating on a public forum that abidance by the law doesn’t matter is probably not too clever either.

I’m actually one of the daft few who spent fair time and money making sure my loads are deer legal, our night cull officer is a stickler for these things as it seems you are.

That being said, I’ve been friends and shot socially with 2 feo’s. If you think they have the time or inclination to search a public forum, worry about energy/velocitys used on particular deer species and particular caliber I think you’ve a rather optimistic opinion on uk policing.

In shooting and farming, we are governed by a myriad of unenforceable laws set by people who don’t understand what we do. And we expect people who are under resourced and under funded to try to enforce them.

 

[Utectok]

Ken.

Thanks that’s it

 

[BigT]

I personally don’t think large slow calibres works as well with copper as lighter bullets pushed faster. This is the conventional wisdom and I concur. I seem to remember the energy formula favours speed as it used as a multiple. Basically speed has a much greater influence on energy than weight. I’m sure @Mungo will explain it better than me!

Generally with copper I’ve leaned towards light and fast and would continue to do so with most calibres.

I did try a 230gr sa made copper bullet in a 9.3x62 that I only got to try in one animal. But even at 222m it obviously expanded well looking at the wound channel.

But I think that’s a factor of having a gigantic cavity

 

[Mike1979]

Generally with copper I’ve leaned towards light and fast and would continue to do so with most calibres.

I did try a 230gr sa made copper bullet in a 9.3x62 that I only got to try in one animal. But even at 222m it obviously expanded well looking at the wound channel.

But I think that’s a factor of having a gigantic cavity

That's a statement and a half

 

[Jagged77]

I have an 18” .243 1:10 twist - not the ideal combination for copper but can make it work to be deer legal. 80.5gr travelling at 3180fps av achieving 1800 ft lbs. Some tinkering still to do with the load as although it’s accurate the standard deviation is a bit varied for my liking. If I can’t get it to my satisfaction it’ll be related to foxing only.

 

[Heym SR20]

How would they ever prove it? They could test your rifle after but that doesn't mean it produced the same velocities with a different batch or even different circumstances of clean barrel etc. No way to prove what speed the bullet was doing at the time of any alleged offence unless it was officially recorded which wouldn't happen.

Although it is a law it is pretty pointless as a short barrelled 243 not producing the legal energy at the muzzle would likely have more energy at time of impact at 50m than a legal 243 would at 250m yet it would be fine legally.

Simple to prove, when they confiscate the rifle and ammunition that you have with it as part of a wider investigation. Measuring velocity is very simple and any Police firearms laboratory could do it.

You are very unlikely to be using vastly different ammo when out Stalking so the ammo they seize is what you are using.

Can be bothered - probably not. However if they are looking at charges why not add another one or two.

It’s perfectly possible to shoot red deer with a 223, 22-250 or a 22Hornet. Plenty where shot in the old days, expect plenty still are. But is it legal - no.

Air rifles. Easy enough to tweek to add quite a few fps so they are well over 12 ft lbs. Is it worth doing and risking breaching firearms act?

 

[Acm]

Simple to prove, when they confiscate the rifle and ammunition that you have with it as part of a wider investigation. Measuring velocity is very simple and any Police firearms laboratory could do it.

You are very unlikely to be using vastly different ammo when out Stalking so the ammo they seize is what you are using.

Can be bothered - probably not. However if they are looking at charges why not add another one or two.

It’s perfectly possible to shoot red deer with a 223, 22-250 or a 22Hornet. Plenty where shot in the old days, expect plenty still are. But is it legal - no.

Air rifles. Easy enough to tweek to add quite a few fps so they are well over 12 ft lbs. Is it worth doing and risking breaching firearms act?

The last shot fired at the deer was your last deer legal one

The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) considers prosecutions under the Deer Act for ammunition mismatch to be extremely unlikely, except perhaps in obvious situations like using military-style FMJ rounds. CPS reportedly stated they would not pursue such a case unless there was over a 95% chance of conviction, due to the Act’s ambiguity and the resources required. So far, no known criminal conviction has occurred in the UK specifically for using unauthorized or non‑expanding ammunition on deer.