Best Calibre for Deer with Copper Bullets

[Tris88]

I’ve run mid range speeds on all the cartridges. So on average there should be a decent node. They may be faster but some of my loads with the fox 100gr showed pressure signs around 3050. Whilst I know this is a different bullet, it also shows you can’t always run to the max accurately.

I figured to be fair, using slightly less than max quotes would be more realistic.

 

[Tazz]

While in Scotland I was talking with a professional culler who does FC contracts and shoots thousands of reds a year between him and his team. They use copper all the time his two go to bullets are the TTSX and the Superperformance GMX his preference was the GMX

 

[Buchan]

I had a terrible time on a trip to Scotland. My .308, Barnes 130s hoe loads, all did the job nicely. 1 shot at about 40yards broadside, was aware of use and ran about 25 yards - top of heart. Second 180m lung and liver as it was quartering more than I thought.
So the ammo was great.
The terrible time was the grief I got from my companions who happened to find a very nice 7mmRM in a local shop and were convincing me I needed it.....

 

[griff]

I don't know if all you copper bullet users are aware that there is a new bullet on the block its called the "Unicorn" bullet, it has some very unique properties.
1. it will expand at close range and not disintegrate.
2. it will expand at long range, rumour has it that if you drop them on the floor they will expand.
3. it knows the difference between deer species, and adjusts itself accordingly.
4. it changes BC according to the distance you shoot.

They are however very expensive and can only be bought when there is a full moon from Brigadoon supplies..

Failing that you might just have to adjust your shooting practices where one bullet will not do it all.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

I am researching a new calibre for my main deer rifle. I have a .303 SMLE which is great for woodland but I can’t make it accurate enough (for my personal standards), 6.5 CM which I bought and enjoyed using with 143gr ELD-X bullets.

I am now shifting to non-toxic and finding the 6.5CM lacking. It won’t shoot the 100gr accurately, the heavier pills shoot nicely but I’m struggling to get the speed on them. Ideally I’d like a terminal velocity of 2300-2400 at a max range of 300yards.

I am deep down a one rifle man, being that I reload I’d be happy to have different loads for species but I don’t really want different guns for deer.

I have been looking mainly at .270 vs .308 vs .30-06. Reading countless forum posts and magazine articles. I’d be keen to hear about peoples experiences with these calibres (and any others) used with copper. I’m not interested in lead performances, I’d like to get ahead of the ban and be ready for it.

The rifle will be used (at one time or another) with all 6 species.

I believe you are over-thinking this.
Non-lead bullets do the job just fine, and are available for .243W and upwards.
I use Lapua Naturalis (factory loaded) in both .243W and .308W and have no issues with either.
If you think you will need it for Fallow/Sika and Reds, the sensible choice would be to go for .308W.
I myself cull mainly Muntjac and Roe for which I usually use the .243W.

 

[Tris88]

I believe you are over-thinking this.
Non-lead bullets do the job just fine, and are available for .243W and upwards.
I use Lapua Naturalis (factory loaded) in both .243W and .308W and have no issues with either.
If you think you will need it for Fallow/Sika and Reds, the sensible choice would be to go for .308W.
I myself cull mainly Muntjac and Roe for which I usually use the .243W.

I disagree. You are taking a life, you should respect that and do your due diligence as a hunter to ensure your equipment is fit for purpose. Treating copper like lead is foolish, IMHO.

 

[User00033]

Spot on @Tris88. I respect the fact that you are not going to apply the same “lead” logic to the longer range shots.

This comment from another current copper thread was interesting:

3) most non toxic bullets if put in the correct place kill well out to well over 300m if launched at appropriate velocities. Indeed will work at 400m. But it, as always, comes down to shot placement.

We found performance of the Barnes LRX 129gr was very patchy around 400m, in a .270 WSM. That range is just a normal shot for us. The cause of the poor terminal performance was just a couple of inches difference in point of impact versus point of aim; lower resistance, poor expansion, next to no peripheral wounding.

The impact velocity from 375-425m, the window where we ran into problems, was ~2375 to 2275 ft./sec.

At longer range, most copper designs can be very unforgiving. That’s a fact, take it or leave it. Where the opportunity lies is with the @Yew Tree Fieldsports type design, where the bullet’s terminal behaviour mimics (to an extent) the behaviour of a traditional copper jacketed lead hunting bullet. But at anything much over 250-300m, you need a higher BC bullet to maintain velocity and energy, ideally. I’m sure that in time, that will come.

I believe you are over-thinking this.

No, he’s not. He’s taking a very responsible approach by recognising that there are issues at the maximum extent of his likely range. He’s not the only one on here looking critically at this, there’s a couple of others too. In these instances, the solution has been greater velocity, bigger calibre.

You won’t hear much about the times copper fails to drop the deer at longer range, such is the nature of how we choose to communicate our findings.

 

[Heym SR20]

Spot on @Tris88. I respect the fact that you are not going to apply the same “lead” logic to the longer range shots.

This comment from another current copper thread was interesting:


We found performance of the Barnes LRX 129gr was very patchy around 400m, in a .270 WSM. That range is just a normal shot for us. The cause of the poor terminal performance was just a couple of inches difference in point of impact versus point of aim; lower resistance, poor expansion, next to no peripheral wounding.

The impact velocity from 375-425m, the window where we ran into problems, was ~2375 to 2275 ft./sec.

At longer range, most copper designs can be very unforgiving. That’s a fact, take it or leave it. Where the opportunity lies is with the @Yew Tree Fieldsports type design, where the bullet’s terminal behaviour mimics (to an extent) the behaviour of a traditional copper jacketed lead hunting bullet. But at anything much over 250-300m, you need a higher BC bullet to maintain velocity and energy, ideally. I’m sure that in time, that will come.


No, he’s not. He’s taking a very responsible approach by recognising that there are issues at the maximum extent of his likely range. He’s not the only one on here looking critically at this, there’s a couple of others too. In these instances, the solution has been greater velocity, bigger calibre.

You won’t hear much about the times copper fails to drop the deer at longer range, such is the nature of how we choose to communicate our findings.

I get what you say, but here in the UK a 400m shot is the exception rather than the rule. Non toxic bullets and shot are here to stay in the UK. Just like lead, there are copper bullets more suitable to certain applications, but there are now plenty of good options that work perfectly well for 95% of applications. And for those 5%, well you either have to get closer, or walk away, but thats no different to any potential shot you have on deer - not correct angle, poor backdrop etc etc. A good hunter understands the limitations of the equipment and hunts accordingly.

Look at the US, they have plenty of areas and seasons where rifles are not allowed and you have to use shotguns, bows or muzzleloaders and hunters embrace such techniques and still get out and kill deer.

But as they always necessity is the mother of invention, and look how far things have developed in the last three or four years.

In 2016 I went on a trip to Germany. I was told to take non toxic ammo in case we hunted on State land. After lots of ringing around I managed to get one box of Hornafy GMX in 7mm and a 100 plus mile round trip to get them. And GMX were very hard and penciled through.

Fast forward - @Edinburgh Rifles has 250,000 non toxic of different designs, and makes (well according to his Facebook page) that will all reliably kill deer out to normal deer stalking ranges.

And in shotguns, there is plenty of good high velocity options for steel proofed guns, and there are a growing list for those of us who shoot 2 1/2” old game guns.

 

[alberta boy]

Like all bullet configurations , there are advantages and disadvantages . Copper monolithics are a good bullet , as long as you use them within their design envelope . I had similiar discussions with people over 40 years ago when the Nosler Partition was all the rage . Some people were using them in smaller capacity cartridges that couldn't get to the required velocities needed to get reliable expansion . The partitions were designed for cartridges like the 300WM and 7mmRM . They would hold together at higher velocities . When heavy for caliber bullets were used in smaller cases , like the 308W and 7mm08 , at longer ranges , they failed to expand reliably . There was nothing wrong with the bullets , they were just used in the wrong application . No bullet that I know of will perform perfectly on game from the muzzle out to 400+ yards . This applies to copper bullets , just as it did with all previous designs . In the future , I'm sure that they will come up with copper bullets that are designed for different impact velocities . In the meantime , choose your bullets , and the ranges you shoot at game , with some fore thought , just like we've always done .

AB

 

[User00033]

You’ve missed the point @Heym SR20. In lots of common cartridges, a normal 250m shot (not uncommon) with lead, is now a different proposition with copper. The .308 Win for example, especially the shorter barrels, will struggle to generate enough MV - and then maintain velocity to the point of impact - to give the same degree of confidence as a soft lead hunting bullet. That’s what our OP is saying about his current rifle and his discomfort with impact velocities below his confidence threshold.

Our tests were for our conditions. Doesn’t mean to say the logic doesn’t stand for lower ranges and other peoples’ requirements. I won’t accept terminal velocity of less than 2,400 ft./sec for copper bullets, which in my .308 Win means I’m forced to accept well over 100m less in effective range. And getting closer isn’t an option!

So the compromise was simply to use a more powerful cartridge. Problem solved.

 

[Heym SR20]

You’ve missed the point @Heym SR20. In lots of common cartridges, a normal 250m shot (not uncommon) with lead, is now a different proposition with copper. The .308 Win for example, especially the shorter barrels, will struggle to generate enough MV - and then maintain velocity to the point of impact - to give the same degree of confidence as a soft lead hunting bullet. That’s what our OP is saying about his current rifle and his discomfort with impact velocities below his confidence threshold.

Our tests were for our conditions. Doesn’t mean to say the logic doesn’t stand for lower ranges and other peoples’ requirements. I won’t accept terminal velocity of less than 2,400 ft./sec for copper bullets, which in my .308 Win means I’m forced to accept well over 100m less in effective range. And getting closer isn’t an option!

So the compromise was simply to use a more powerful cartridge. Problem solved.

So that’s the reason for the 7mm Rem Mag, 300 win mag and the newer high velocity equivalents. And there are rapidly expanding non toxic bullets like the RWS Evo Green which will work down range, although getting hold of such in the UK is not that easy.

 

[Bowland blades]

I am researching a new calibre for my main deer rifle. I have a .303 SMLE which is great for woodland but I can’t make it accurate enough (for my personal standards), 6.5 CM which I bought and enjoyed using with 143gr ELD-X bullets.

I am now shifting to non-toxic and finding the 6.5CM lacking. It won’t shoot the 100gr accurately, the heavier pills shoot nicely but I’m struggling to get the speed on them. Ideally I’d like a terminal velocity of 2300-2400 at a max range of 300yards.

I am deep down a one rifle man, being that I reload I’d be happy to have different loads for species but I don’t really want different guns for deer.

I have been looking mainly at .270 vs .308 vs .30-06. Reading countless forum posts and magazine articles. I’d be keen to hear about peoples experiences with these calibres (and any others) used with copper. I’m not interested in lead performances, I’d like to get ahead of the ban and be ready for it.

The rifle will be used (at one time or another) with all 6 species.

The creed isn't working with copper? Assuming it's 1 in 8 twist or 1 in 7 it totally should do copper very well indeed . What is the problem
I shot a 260 rem 1-8 twist and its spot on with ttsx 100 or 120 grain n150 and n160 respectively.
Killing big red stags and hinds at range no problem at 300 with 100 grain copper a 6.5 care should pretty much mirror it

 

[Deermanagement]

Just a thought....haven't read through all the posts but........ having preferred to stay with lead for as long as I can buy them or as long as stocks last, I have thought about "non toxic" and seen not so good results from the 6.5 only. Would like to try the RWS evo green, but it would have been better if they were a bit heavier than 93g in 6.5. May still try them, but a thought just came to mind ref copper....

I'm sure copper can be seen in may states of hardness, annealed being the softer. Maybe someone needs to look at annealed copper with a hardened copper jacket or something along the lines of current copper jacket hardness. I maybe talking rubbish and I don't usually write anything before a bit of research but on this instance I'll let anyone with better copper knowledge comment

 

[Bowland blades]

Just a thought....haven't read through all the posts but........ having preferred to stay with lead for as long as I can buy them or as long as stocks last, I have thought about "non toxic" and seen not so good results from the 6.5 only. Would like to try the RWS evo green, but it would have been better if they were a bit heavier than 93g in 6.5. May still try them, but a thought just came to mind ref copper....

I'm sure copper can be seen in may states of hardness, annealed being the softer. Maybe someone needs to look at annealed copper with a hardened copper jacket or something along the lines of current copper jacket hardness. I maybe talking rubbish and I don't usually write anything before a bit of research but on this instance I'll let anyone with better copper knowledge comment

Barnes TTSX are maybe the best deervbulket I have ever used period every recoverd bullet looks like a bad fake palm tree with its 4 petals folded round a shank with excellent penetrative good fast kills , not a long run from one yet 100% weight retention.
100 grain 6.5 and 120 . The 100 arexal, I require from big stags down

 

[Utectok]

You’ve missed the point @Heym SR20. In lots of common cartridges, a normal 250m shot (not uncommon) with lead, is now a different proposition with copper. The .308 Win for example, especially the shorter barrels, will struggle to generate enough MV - and then maintain velocity to the point of impact - to give the same degree of confidence as a soft lead hunting bullet. That’s what our OP is saying about his current rifle and his discomfort with impact velocities below his confidence threshold.

Our tests were for our conditions. Doesn’t mean to say the logic doesn’t stand for lower ranges and other peoples’ requirements. I won’t accept terminal velocity of less than 2,400 ft./sec for copper bullets, which in my .308 Win means I’m forced to accept well over 100m less in effective range. And getting closer isn’t an option!

So the compromise was simply to use a more powerful cartridge. Problem solved.

I’m pretty confident Barnes ttsx will expand well a lot slower than 2400fps. Barnes quote 1800fps for ttsx and 1600fps for lrx. I’ve had good results down to 2100fps and would be happy with a terminal velocity of 2000fps… each to his own though

 

[User00033]

Barnes quote 1800fps for ttsx and 1600fps for lrx.

We’ve been through all this before.

Expansion and tip deformation are two different things.

I am pretty sure that since Sierra acquired Barnes from Remington they have removed all of the references to minimum expansion velocity, because the simple fact is it was a total load of bollocks.

 

[Utectok]

We’ve been through all this before.

Expansion and tip deformation are two different things.

I am pretty sure that since Sierra acquired Barnes from Remington they have removed all of the references to minimum expansion velocity, because the simple fact is it was a total load of bollocks.

Ohh ok I didn’t know that

 

[monarman]

Trying to understand why B.C and 3-400 yards and quoted terminal velocity (ballistic gel tests are nothing like the inside of a deer ) are being even mentioned.... just use whatever lead free ammo shoots the most accurate of your rifle... get to within a respectable shooting distance where you can control more variables (so within 200 yards )... and alter your aim slightly to just behind the shoulder and slightly higher than you normally would and just shoot!.... lead free will kill deer.... admitted you are likely to get a few more runners if you don't pin them... but they don't go far and should be easy enough to find if you employ proper stalking skills(the bit where you should of learned how to do a follow up ).... or use the thermal that you inevitably will be carrying( likely to of replaced binos in some cases) .... or a dog....

Forget ballistic calculators and such like as they do nothing more than create a talking/arguing point on forums and have little relevance in the field (unless you're a bambi sniper) and bullets from the states don't do the same on our smaller deer as they aren't as big and tough.... .and as we are supposed to be stalkers and get within arse kicking distance of a deer it won't matter what B .C is as the deer will be dead before it comes into any relevance...

You have a rifle of a good caliber.... learn to use it with lead free and it'll be fine...
The stalking world soon learned how to use rangefinding binos and thermals and embraced them wholeheartedly, so do the same with lead free ammo and accept it as 'gamechanger' (which it invariably is in more ways than one....)... the same as the ranging binos and thermals are (I personally don't like the term gamechanger but there we are)...

 

[NP435]

I am researching a new calibre for my main deer rifle. I have a .303 SMLE which is great for woodland but I can’t make it accurate enough (for my personal standards), 6.5 CM which I bought and enjoyed using with 143gr ELD-X bullets.

I am now shifting to non-toxic and finding the 6.5CM lacking. It won’t shoot the 100gr accurately, the heavier pills shoot nicely but I’m struggling to get the speed on them. Ideally I’d like a terminal velocity of 2300-2400 at a max range of 300yards.

I am deep down a one rifle man, being that I reload I’d be happy to have different loads for species but I don’t really want different guns for deer.

I have been looking mainly at .270 vs .308 vs .30-06. Reading countless forum posts and magazine articles. I’d be keen to hear about peoples experiences with these calibres (and any others) used with copper. I’m not interested in lead performances, I’d like to get ahead of the ban and be ready for it.

The rifle will be used (at one time or another) with all 6 species.

If I read correctly you are interested in impact velocity at 2300-2400 fps at 300 yards. Curious about grouping with the 100 grain projectiles you tried. I would consider a 270 win or for that matter 308.

 

[Tris88]

Trying to understand why B.C and 3-400 yards and quoted terminal velocity (ballistic gel tests are nothing like the inside of a deer ) are being even mentioned.... just use whatever lead free ammo shoots the most accurate of your rifle... get to within a respectable shooting distance where you can control more variables (so within 200 yards )... and alter your aim slightly to just behind the shoulder and slightly higher than you normally would and just shoot!.... lead free will kill deer.... admitted you are likely to get a few more runners if you don't pin them... but they don't go far and should be easy enough to find if you employ proper stalking skills(the bit where you should of learned how to do a follow up ).... or use the thermal that you inevitably will be carrying( likely to of replaced binos in some cases) .... or a dog....

Forget ballistic calculators and such like as they do nothing more than create a talking/arguing point on forums and have little relevance in the field (unless you're a bambi sniper) and bullets from the states don't do the same on our smaller deer as they aren't as big and tough.... .and as we are supposed to be stalkers and get within arse kicking distance of a deer it won't matter what B .C is as the deer will be dead before it comes into any relevance...

You have a rifle of a good caliber.... learn to use it with lead free and it'll be fine...
The stalking world soon learned how to use rangefinding binos and thermals and embraced them wholeheartedly, so do the same with lead free ammo and accept it as 'gamechanger' (which it invariably is in more ways than one....)... the same as the ranging binos and thermals are (I personally don't like the term gamechanger but there we are)...

A very helpful answer, to a question that was not asked.