Asked for evidence of competency... Is this normal?

[kes]

We should all be holding the line on these stupid and unjustified requirements. It would have stopped none of the (legally owned) gun murders - that the Police should do. They failed again in Plymouth.
Giving in to unnecessary DSC requirements, mentoring, shotgun proficiency certificates will allow that attitude in the Police to proliferate and embed as with medicals - I doubt there are many accidents through mishandling excepting the one where a chap shot and killed his stepson - whilst out lamping and nothing in the world could have prevented that excepting the mantra we all live by - ensure you have correctly identified your target before you fire.

Whatever you do after documents are provided is a personal choice - probably very sensible in some cases but it should not and must not be a condition of grant - unless the law is changed or HO Guidance is.
All of these changes are suitable for Judicial Review as I believe they stray beyond the publicly acceptable rules laid down. Remember when we were kids you just called in at the post office and paid your money and bought your gun.

The group offering training (and benefiting financially from that) is the group to lead and ensure an end this 'requirement creep' but it wont and that is guaranteed.

 

[Stalker62]

I take it you’re happy enough with blatant inconsistency and a lack of knowledge from the people who decide whether you get an fac?

All joshing aside. No I am not.

Inconsistency helps no one.
That some FEOs lack knowledge is undeniable.
Some are excellent.

That they all lack a standard level of training is atrocious.

It is my view (only mine mind), that no one should be permitted to own any firearm without some form of training - I know there are many with contrary views.

 

[Stalker62]

We should all be holding the line on these stupid and unjustified requirements.

Neither stupid nor (in my view) unjustified.

It would have stopped none of the (legally owned) gun murders - that the Police should do that. They failed again in Plymouth.

Interesting segue - something you are oft prone to and adds noting to the debate at hand. You make a statement of fact (which may of course turn out to be correct) and yet the Coroner has not yet come to their conclusions in this dreadful case.

Whatever you do after documents are provided is a personal choice - probably very sensible but it should not and must not be a condition of grant - unless the law is changed or HO Guidance is.

I agree that perhaps the law or HO guidance does needs changing and clarifying.

 

[8x57]

All joshing aside. No I am not.

Inconsistency helps no one.
That some FEOs lack knowledge is undeniable.
Some are excellent.

That they all lack a standard level of training is atrocious.

It is my view (only mine mind), that no one should be permitted to own any firearm without some form of training - I know there are many with contrary views.

Years ago I would have argued most strenuously against you but in recent years my opinion has changed and I will agree with you especially on your last point "that no one should be permitted any firearm without some form of training".

 

[Liveonce]

Years ago I would have argued most strenuously against you but in recent years my opinion has changed and I will agree with you especially on your last point "that no one should be permitted any firearm without some form of training".

define training?

You are building an empire, does a safe shooters card obtained on a range make you safe to be out shooting rabbits or foxes by day or night, does DSC demonstrate you are a safe shot out in the countryside other than you can hit a target or clay shooting make you a safe shot in a pigeon hide.

Shooting is not considered a risk sport as far I know by insurance companies and accidents are fortunately very rare.

The FEO has a duty of care to the applicant, family and wider community so I can understand they require the applicant to demonstrate they are competent and safe to handle a firearm it’s how one obtains that competence that should have many ways.

 

[Overlay]

define training?

You are building an empire, does a safe shooters card obtained on a range make you safe to be out shooting rabbits or foxes by day or night, does DSC demonstrate you are a safe shot out in the countryside other than you can hit a target or clay shooting make you a safe shot in a pigeon hide.

Shooting is not considered a risk sport as far I know by insurance companies and accidents are fortunately very rare.

The FEO has a duty of care to the applicant, family and wider community so I can understand they require the applicant to demonstrate they are competent and safe to handle a firearm it’s how one obtains that competence that should have many ways.

A different angle is any learning is good learning it doesn't come over night, any safe experience you can pick up in or surrounding shooting is all good irrespective where it comes from
range work training, shooting courses, DMQ all add up to where you want to be safety and proficient wise and carry on learning as you go

 

[308tikka]

I'll forward it to my nephew. He's looking to get his fac and join the Stalking community and a rifle club. He is finding it's a chicken or the egg situation, the local rifle club are not interested in members unless you have an Fac already. He has stalked with his dad already. Thanks for the link.

Then its not a Home Office Approved Club which are required to host probationers and to mentor, assessing suitability.

 

[308tikka]

After the DSC, there will be others…like this shotgun safety thing (first I’ve heard of that!)…next it’ll be, you need air rifle safety, reloading safety, ammunition storage 1….then ammunition storage 2 (for shotgun ammo)…..they will not stop until the hoops to jump through are so vast that many people don’t bother.

My thread on multiple rifles of the same chambering was due to a friend getting a visit from an FEO who stated that no one will be getting multiple duplicate chamberings anymore…he also stated that “not even game keepers are allowed 120 rounds of ammo for a 243….”

I recommended my friend (who shoots game, goes stalking, controls vermin and competes in club level competition) gets the refusal in writing and then takes it to his shooting org so they can tear it apart.

FEO is so clueless in this instance.

120rds! Im not going to show what I have on my ticket here, but my first licence had 500 cf and 1000 22lr.

Demonstrated need..... do some other shooting and youll soon need more than 120.....

 

[308tikka]

All joshing aside. No I am not.

Inconsistency helps no one.
That some FEOs lack knowledge is undeniable.
Some are excellent.

That they all lack a standard level of training is atrocious.

It is my view (only mine mind), that no one should be permitted to own any firearm without some form of training - I know there are many with contrary views.

there are now moves afoot to introduce standardised trg for FEOs.

 

[8x57]

Years ago youngsters would be introduced to shooting by their fathers, grandfathers, uncles, cadets, schools, scouts or via military service etc.etc.
Maybe the start to their shooting career would be via air rifles and later on a shotgun but usually under the guidance of someone with relevant shooting experience. Maybe the input wasn't totally correct but at least they were receiving the fundamental basics of safety and marksmanship.

Then for some reason shooting sports became a bit of a no no in many circles, so the only experience most youngsters encountered of shooting was from electronic games and the internet. What we then landed up with is guys and girls coming along later in life that quite frankly don't know their foresight from their butt. They have no comprehension of gun safety because it was never mentioned in the games that they played on their play stations. They don't know how to use iron sights because guns in these wizz bang games only ever had scope sights that meant you just aim dead on like a laser and you hit every time. I've seen it a fair bit in recent years and I find the level of shooting ignorance quite concerning or even alarming at times.

I therefore came to form the opinion that some form of basic gun safety training should be a prerequisite to the grant of a SGC or FAC. Now just how that training is achieved and by whom it is supplied I don't know but I do know that it should be provided to a recognised standard.

 

[Liveonce]

Years ago youngsters would be introduced to shooting by their fathers, grandfathers, uncles, cadets, schools, scouts or via military service etc.etc.
Maybe the start to their shooting career would be via air rifles and later on a shotgun but usually under the guidance of someone with relevant shooting experience. Maybe the input wasn't totally correct but at least they were receiving the fundamental basics of safety and marksmanship.

Then for some reason shooting sports became a bit of a no no in many circles, so the only experience most youngsters encountered of shooting was from electronic games and the internet. What we then landed up with is guys and girls coming along later in life that quite frankly don't know their foresight from their butt. They have no comprehension of gun safety because it was never mentioned in the games that they played on their play stations. They don't know how to use iron sights because guns in these wizz bang games only ever had scope sights that meant you just aim dead on like a laser and you hit every time. I've seen it a fair bit in recent years and I find the level of shooting ignorance quite concerning or even alarming at times.

I therefore came to form the opinion that some form of basic gun safety training should be a prerequisite to the grant of a SGC or FAC. Now just how that training is achieved and by whom it is supplied I don't know but I do know that it should be provided to a recognised standard.

indeed, which is hopefully where Club play an important part in introducing such people to the sport, be that via air gun, small bore or clay shooting. Hopefully also gun shops especially for airguns in suggesting the buyer with no experience is told about a local club and insurance. Most Clay clubs run introduction to clay shooting events and they will certainly include safe gun handling. NRA have the safe shooters card.

Lots of clay grounds are just turn up and go from stand to stand without any supervision by the ground operator no RCO and it has been that way for many years with very few accidents as safety is the responsibility of all present.

Not even it appears at this time FEOs are trained to a recognised standard so why burden every potential new person trying to enter the sport with the need for potentially expensive formal training? It should be determined on each persons requirements. Should an experienced clay shooter need formal training before being allowed to participate in crop protection or a days game shooting? or a competent target shooter before booking a days stalking?

You say you have seen a fair bit in recent years, then as a responsible shooter hopefully you have acted either by directly approaching the individual or notifying a Club official or Clay ground operator.

 

[Heym SR20]

An FEO needs to verify any FAC applicant to be a fit and competent person. And quite reasonably will ask for evidence to support this verification.

Quite rightly the licencing authorities need to ensure that only fit and competent people have access to and can possess firearms. And there is and should be a high threshold.

Sadly the process is not fault free, and we can all think and recall tragic incidents where individuals have been granted FACs / SCs when they probably should have not been. And sadly there will always be odd incident where the verification has been done and the person has fit and proper test.

But these days, with increased scrutiny of every decision making process there needs to be a thorough trail of evidence gathered by the FEOs to support the decision making process.

As for the idea that just because somebody has been doing something for 30 odd years he is safe and competent, in plenty of other activities it is well understood that time leads to complacency and then accidents happen.

 

[Jeff8861]

Form 30 states the applicant must demonstrate and have the required knowledge and understanding to use shotguns firearms in a safe and proficient manner. Believe it or not some folk submit grants for fac and sgc with no background knowledge and expierence or even held a firearm.
Would you authorise anyone in these situations or would you tell them to go and complete a rifle or sg safety course or come back with some written examples and expirences. Do you think basc would agree that this is a pratical and common sense approach.

 

[Jeff8861]

Ask him where this requirement is written in the Home Office Guidance, let him bs you for a minute or two and then give him the letter

Would you authorise if the applicant had no knowledge or provide evidence of being competent person

 

[Stalker62]

Right then.

Just going to roll this one in...


Let's just do away with the Motorbike licence, the Car licence, - fcuk it, - whilst we are doing that, the Pilot's licence as well...







Anyone feeling safer?

 

[Jeff8861]

You can be sure if something goes wrong and it ends up with some hapless member of the public’s brain being sprayed all over the ground, then picked up by people in hazmat suits with tweezers putting bits of brain in a plastic bag….. well you can be sure that the circumstances of how the bullet ended up where it did will be looked at in the minutest detail. This includes why the FEO recommended them as suitable to possess firearms.

As it stands, there is no legislated requirement for firearms safety training for field shooting. Someone can never have touched a gun before and get a licence to purchase a 308, which is lethal at 3 miles if you £&@£ it up.

I’d be wanting some evidence of some firearms training. Look at the many YouTube gun fail videos from the US about what happens when people who haven’t used guns before, just get them and start shootings at stuff.

Form 30 has this question in it for the specific reason don't authorise guns to folk who have no idea no knowledge and no understanding yet agsin on this forum folk jumping in stating the legislation doesn't say that. Not sure they understand the term risk assessment lol

 

[8x57]

indeed, which is hopefully where Club play an important part in introducing such people to the sport, be that via air gun, small bore or clay shooting. Hopefully also gun shops especially for airguns in suggesting the buyer with no experience is told about a local club and insurance. Most Clay clubs run introduction to clay shooting events and they will certainly include safe gun handling. NRA have the safe shooters card.

Lots of clay grounds are just turn up and go from stand to stand without any supervision by the ground operator no RCO and it has been that way for many years with very few accidents as safety is the responsibility of all present.

Not even it appears at this time FEOs are trained to a recognised standard so why burden every potential new person trying to enter the sport with the need for potentially expensive formal training? It should be determined on each persons requirements. Should an experienced clay shooter need formal training before being allowed to participate in crop protection or a days game shooting? or a competent target shooter before booking a days stalking?

You say you have seen a fair bit in recent years, then as a responsible shooter hopefully you have acted either by directly approaching the individual or notifying a Club official or Clay ground operator.

You are quite right Liveonce, target shooting clubs have a very serious responsibility to provide suitable training. In fact it's a regulation requirement for all Home Office approved clubs to do so (I was a rifle club secretary for more than 25 years). However the NRA safe shooter card is no guarantee of competence. As you probably know it is only the club chairman that can sign off on the safe shooter card. Our club chairman would only sign off on a member for the disciplines in which they could demonstrate competence. He even recorded any evidence that the shooter supplied to support their knowledge and previous experience or certification. However I do know of other clubs where the chairman simply signs the card no questions asked, even if the club member is a relative novice.

Then there will be those that claim that holding a DSC1 certificate could be used as evidence of competence, in fact some FEO's ask for it. Well I have witnessed a couple of occasions when an absolute novice has passed the DSC1 when they have never ever shot a rifle previous to the shooting test and when the "examiner" has loaded the rifle for them, placed it on shooting sticks, and held the rifle in place on the shooting sticks while the candidate simply pulled the trigger when the sights were aligned. They got their certificates at the end of the day, but honestly I wouldn't have trusted them to take the rifle out of it's case because they were incapable of doing that in a safe way.

 

[Bo Diddley]

Right then.

Just going to roll this one in...


Let's just do away with the Motorbike licence, the Car licence, - fcuk it, - whilst we are doing that, the Pilot's licence as well...


View attachment 294239




Anyone feeling safer?

That's gotta be Bez from the Happy Mondays

 

[Sealgair nam fiadh]

Would you authorise if the applicant had no knowledge or provide evidence of being competent person

I would follow Home Office Guidance, not make things up.

 

[Jeff8861]

I would follow Home Office Guidance, not make things up.

Really imagine in few years time when you are grilled in the corners court or old Bailey and they ask you. Why did you authorise this person to a lethal weapon when they had no knowledge no understanding and no expirence, doesn't go down well trust me. Hypertherocal question I know and it wouldnt happen as you have to provide evidence to the feo during the grant process as laid out in form 30.