BASC response to proposed Scottish deer management changes

[Boosh]

As for a fox closed season I have no problem with that.
If guys only have as much permission they can realistically keep on top of and are regularly active on, then the majority of foxing can be done well out of breeding season, you know, when it's cold and dark early, the sort of times most of the lightweights are hiding in front of the TV, finally getting the gear out in early spring when foxes are in bonk- ers/ing mode, temps increasing and parentless cubs following.
Problem is a lot of shouting goes on when 1 lamb goes missing, never a problem for the other 10 months of the year.

 

[Apthorpe]

Well, no. But the logic is sound. Why should deer have closed seasons when foxes don't? There is no argument against the removal of the season for male deer that stands any scrutiny based on welfare, particularly when BASC support their members who choose to shoot, snare and put dogs to ground for fox control.

Foxes don’t have a closed season because they are a pest species and deer are not. Further foxes are carnivores and deer are not. It is permissible to shoot foxes at any time because, and only because, of the deaths they cause of livestock and/or other animals. It would be absurd to argue there is any moral or welfare equivalence between plants being eaten by deer and animals being killed by foxes. Individual deer also do not have the capacity to inflict disproportionate damage analogous to a fox in a henhouse, lambing field or release pen.

 

[User00053]

Not living now in Scotland so have no dog in the fight so to speak, but would seem deer by some regarded as pest species that have no close season and not able to identify by sex visually unlike most deer in daytime.
Watch plenty deer myself with thermal binoculars and through thermal scope whilst foxing as many others do, but if shooting by sex would use some decent tubed nv if not back to thermal and fill a cart full.
Hope things work out upt north when dust has settled and folks adjust to whatever comes their way.
Plenty folk killing and maiming deer with tuned airguns and nv and thermal everywhere for last decade or so

 

[Hayduke]

Ffs

 

[Mr. Gain]

If shooting by sex would use some decent tubed NV

Really no need for that with current digital offerings and IR.

 

[slider]

Stephen do you realy belive what you are writing. People will use what ever they can afford. We have problems with NV being used on top of cross bow,s in Glasgow spears bows and arrows Air rifles etc. Do not credit people with the same sense as those that have spent hard cash colletting information to pass tests and examinations in deer management. Most on here are not the ones we need to worry about. Nutcases creeping about our urban areas with now legal pour quality NV Thermal shooting at anything that glows.

You are really having a laugh now surely! What have Glasgow Neds using NV on top of cross bows and air rifles got to do with proposed changes in the legislation. Changes to legalise equipment isn't going to stop those that currently ignore the law!

 

[slider]

Foxes don’t have a closed season because they are a pest species and deer are not. Further foxes are carnivores and deer are not. It is permissible to shoot foxes at any time because, and only because, of the deaths they cause of livestock and/or other animals. It would be absurd to argue there is any moral or welfare equivalence between plants being eaten by deer and animals being killed by foxes. Individual deer also do not have the capacity to inflict disproportionate damage analogous to a fox in a henhouse, lambing field or release pen.

Rabbits?

 

[User00053]

Really no need for that with current digital offerings and IR.

Agree and have owned, just my personal choice in theory as have only shot deer at night under the lamp and licence and not my cup of tea

 

[homer]

As for a fox closed season I have no problem with that.
If guys only have as much permission they can realistically keep on top of and are regularly active on, then the majority of foxing can be done well out of breeding season, you know, when it's cold and dark early, the sort of times most of the lightweights are hiding in front of the TV, finally getting the gear out in early spring when foxes are in bonk- ers/ing mode, temps increasing and parentless cubs following.
Problem is a lot of shouting goes on when 1 lamb goes missing, never a problem for the other 10 months of the year.

Foxes will travel many miles, so even if you managed to "clear" your area during winter, you're still going to end up with foxes cubbing on your ground in spring. That is, unless you shoot them all year round. Foxes do the most damage to wildlife in spring/early summer, when all other animals/birds are trying to raise their young. This is the most important time to be controlling them, not give them a closed season!
This is were the difference lies between someone controlling foxes for a living and someone doing it for hobby/sport.

 

[User00053]

Deer politics very emotive subject and times have changed with people addressing subject from different perspectives and objectives, when in Rome and all that stuff

 

[LuckyEddie]

Well, no. But the logic is sound. Why should deer have closed seasons when foxes don't? There is no argument against the removal of the season for male deer that stands any scrutiny based on welfare, particularly when BASC support their members who choose to shoot, snare and put dogs to ground for fox control.

Have you ever shot a pregnant rabbit and gutted it?
I‘ve done a number over the years.

So someone with NV shoots a pregnant doe or hind and then have to gut it?
Will they leave the fetus wriggling as they carry out the remainder of the gralloch, will they use another bullet, or will a knife suffice?
Should this be written into the Best Practice?

How should you dispose of the extra gralloch - remember there was uproar last year (?) regarding the remains of a deer that was poached and the fetus left on the ground.
I’ll say it now, there will be members of the public that will stray on these remains and cause a who-ha about it, and say “how callous the stalkers are”.
It will happen, no matter how hard you try to maintain standards, someone somewhere will slip up and add another marker against stalkers.

 

[User00053]

Have you ever shot a pregnant rabbit and gutted it?
I‘ve done a number over the years.

So someone with NV shoots a pregnant doe or hind and then have to gut it?
Will they leave the fetus wriggling as they carry out the remainder of the gralloch, will they use another bullet, or will a knife suffice?
Should this be written into the Best Practice?

How should you dispose of the extra gralloch - remember there was uproar last year (?) regarding the remains of a deer that was poached and the fetus left on the ground.
I’ll say it now, there will be members of the public that will stray on these remains and cause a who-ha about it, and say “how callous the stalkers are”.
It will happen, no matter how hard you try to maintain standards, someone somewhere will slip up and add another marker against stalkers.

Like many things folks can write reams on best practice, create numerous courses and certificates not unlike passing driving test then practical necessities override situation if driven and paid by numbers, recreational stalkers have perhaps more of a choice when applying ethics.

 

[Apthorpe]

Like many things folks can write reams on best practice, create numerous courses and certificates not unlike passing driving test then practical necessities override situation if driven and paid by numbers, recreational stalkers have perhaps more of a choice when applying ethics.

What happens when we consider that comment from a different perspective? Recreational stalkers perhaps don't feel any pressure against their ethics in deciding how to delay with deer, but professional contractors, because they need to maximise numbers and money, find that in practice the ethics take second place to getting their targets. Is that the message to take away?

 

[StephenToast]

Foxes don’t have a closed season because they are a pest species and deer are not. Further foxes are carnivores and deer are not. It is permissible to shoot foxes at any time because, and only because, of the deaths they cause of livestock and/or other animals. It would be absurd to argue there is any moral or welfare equivalence between plants being eaten by deer and animals being killed by foxes. Individual deer also do not have the capacity to inflict disproportionate damage analogous to a fox in a henhouse, lambing field or release pen.

deer are absolutely a pest species.

What has their diet got to do with their welfare?

If lambing fields, and release pens and hen houses are laid out correctly damage is minimised. The time of year they are controlled has nothing to do with that. In any case, why is it acceptable to snare an animal, or leave it's young to starve because there is a chance that it may enter a fenced area full of non-native species which are damaging to their local environment and are only placed there for human recreation?

 

[User00053]

What happens when we consider that comment from a different perspective? Recreational stalkers perhaps don't feel any pressure against their ethics in deciding how to delay with deer, but professional contractors, because they need to maximise numbers and money, find that in practice the ethics take second place to getting their targets. Is that the message to take away?

Have no idea but can only say each must do what they believe to be right and within the law

 

[StephenToast]

Have you ever shot a pregnant rabbit and gutted it?
I‘ve done a number over the years.

So someone with NV shoots a pregnant doe or hind and then have to gut it?
Will they leave the fetus wriggling as they carry out the remainder of the gralloch, will they use another bullet, or will a knife suffice?
Should this be written into the Best Practice?

How should you dispose of the extra gralloch - remember there was uproar last year (?) regarding the remains of a deer that was poached and the fetus left on the ground.
I’ll say it now, there will be members of the public that will stray on these remains and cause a who-ha about it, and say “how callous the stalkers are”.
It will happen, no matter how hard you try to maintain standards, someone somewhere will slip up and add another marker against stalkers.

Yes I have. And I've shot pregnant muntjac, and hares, and foxes.


I am comfortable with my actions.


How is it justifiable that it is legal to do that to those species, but not deer?

 

[Apthorpe]

deer are absolutely a pest species.

That's a statement of opinion not legal fact.

What has their diet got to do with their welfare?

Do we really need to get the crayons out? Foxes have a deleterious effect on the welfare of other animal species in a way that deer don't. Consequently it is a matter of trading off the harm to fox welfare against the benefit to their prey.

If lambing fields, and release pens and hen houses are laid out correctly damage is minimised. The time of year they are controlled has nothing to do with that. In any case, why is it acceptable to snare an animal, or leave it's young to starve because there is a chance that it may enter a fenced area full of non-native species which are damaging to their local environment and are only placed there for human recreation?

Because human interests determine the law. Were animals to determine the law, there would be no restriction at all on any species for any ethical reason.

 

[Rake Aboot]

Have you ever shot a pregnant rabbit and gutted it?
I‘ve done a number over the years.

So someone with NV shoots a pregnant doe or hind and then have to gut it?
Will they leave the fetus wriggling as they carry out the remainder of the gralloch, will they use another bullet, or will a knife suffice?
Should this be written into the Best Practice?

How should you dispose of the extra gralloch - remember there was uproar last year (?) regarding the remains of a deer that was poached and the fetus left on the ground.
I’ll say it now, there will be members of the public that will stray on these remains and cause a who-ha about it, and say “how callous the stalkers are”.
It will happen, no matter how hard you try to maintain standards, someone somewhere will slip up and add another marker against stalkers.

I’ve shot loads of roe with large fetus inside .
I’m not sure what your point is .

As for NV
You can shoot a deer in the rain with open sights and be lauded as a traditionalist hero but you can’t use thermal to shoot them at night ??
Stupid.

 

[StephenToast]

That's a statement of opinion not legal fact.

Would you be so kind as to point out where in law it states that Hares are a pest species.

Or indeed foxes?

Or find me a legal definition of the word "pest"

Do we really need to get the crayons out? Foxes have a deleterious effect on the welfare of other animal species in a way that deer don't. Consequently it is a matter of trading off the harm to fox welfare against the benefit to their prey.

Deer have a deleterious effect to many birds and mammals through browsing damage of woodland understory.

Because human interests determine the law. Were animals to determine the law, there would be no restriction at all on any species for any ethical reason.

Exactly. And it is in the human interest that the deer closed seasons are removed, on the basis that if there is no welfare issue for the other sentient mammals that we can kill at any time of year then there must be no welfare issue for deer.

 

[foxhunter]

I support all 3 recommendations, more tools in a contractors box.
Doesn't mean they have to use them but the option exists.