BASC response to proposed Scottish deer management changes

[jall55]

And? If you are any use you'll also shoot or snare them won't you? You are certainly within your rights to by law.

I've read on here that if fallow fawns are orphaned early in the season they will be okay as another doe will adopt them.


Deer browsing causes damage to neating habitat and reduces the denaity of ground nesting birds.



They are atill a non-native species that have an impact on their surrounding area of greater or less effect dependent on how concientious the keeper is, and they are only there because it's fun to shoot them.

the benefits of supplementary feeding are suspect, habitat improvement would be a more long term benefit but as above. Relies on how concientious the keeper is.

Supplementary feeding also bolsters populations of other pest species such as rats.

The benefits of supplementary feeding are plain to see
We had one of the biggest finch flocks this winter and we are still alive with them nesting
As with anything it can bring negatives but i manage the rats too

Im no deer manager - so im not sure about how i quite feel with the ethics of lamping / thermal shooting them really - to me so long as no deer suffers and is used - does it matter then if its shot day / or night

 

[LuckyEddie]

Just remember Eddie it's best practice to shoot heavily pregnant muntjac does.
And all females shot in march will have a well developed foetus.except Chinese.
Regards Gary

I know, but how many posts on here mention people not wanting to shoot heavily pregnant females and ensuring their female culls are carried out as early as possible.

Also by going down that route, there isn’t much to change the status from game to vermin with no restrictions what so ever - cue pest control companies and the end of the recreational stalker.

 

[imnotrucknut]

Unfortunately on here you have the professional stalker the semi professional stalker the recreational stalker and the armchair stalker all with very differing views on how deer should be managed.

Regards Gary

 

[User00053]

Think as far as close seasons go we had pretty much got it right with with most vermin in terms of protecting other species in general and no close season along with rats and wabbits.
Most happy to decoy pigeons and members of crow family, shoot rabbits and kill rats all year round and shoot foxs and kill by other means and all is good regardless of status of their offspring and possible fate with pictures of young Peter rabbit gasping it’s last with belt tightened springs to the mind of some in dingly dell.
Anyhow my point is if some species of deer have become a pest in certain locations not unlike the rabbit why are some people not able to accept change of status as climates change.
If your going to have close seasons on grounds of animal welfare do it for everything across the range and see what happens or leave things as they are and accept deer may have to be dealt with in a different way to the past.
Personally have nothing to gain or lose either way so easy for me to say and does not put me up nor down.

 

[User00053]

Next episode could be animal discrimination act and complaints from those identifying as muntjac

 

[User00053]

They are here!

 

[rookstorm]

Membership resignation on its way tomorrow @Conor O'Gorman

Agree with number 2
and have no opinions either way with 3, but to back 1 is wrong in my opinion.
Regards
Jimmy

What about using them through the day? you can in england

 

[rookstorm]

Foxes don’t have a closed season because they are a pest species and deer are not. Further foxes are carnivores and deer are not. It is permissible to shoot foxes at any time because, and only because, of the deaths they cause of livestock and/or other animals. It would be absurd to argue there is any moral or welfare equivalence between plants being eaten by deer and animals being killed by foxes. Individual deer also do not have the capacity to inflict disproportionate damage analogous to a fox in a henhouse, lambing field or release pen.

Roe are classed as vermin

 

[Apthorpe]

Roe are classed as vermin

Are they? By whom?

 

[@theroedeerguy]

Roe are classed as vermin

Don’t know what part of Fife you are in but Roe deer are not classed as vermin over the 3000+ acres of Fife I stalk.

Roe deer are a valuable asset that require consistent population management.

As you may or may not know Fife regularly produces some of the best Roe deer heads in Scotland and are definitely not vermin.

 

[cookingfat]

NV and thermal scopes have been used to good effect on another night shooting job for NE without to much problems allow a shooting test and ecology lessen must be done first to obtain the the license, can't see why deer should be any different as they are a much bigger target, the problems may come when people start shooting past the recommended distances.

Not sure about shooting male deer all year round but happy which ever way it went.

 

[David Barker]

NV and thermal scopes have been used to good effect on another night shooting job for NE without to much problems allow a shooting test and ecology lessen must be done first to obtain the the license, can't see why deer should be any different as they are a much bigger target, the problems may come when people start shooting past the recommended distances.

Not sure about shooting male deer all year round but happy which ever way it went.

I think shooting a few Fallow on open fields a wee bit different to shoot thousands of Red and Roe over some of the roughest terrain the uk has. Most deer will be shot on clear fells with thick brash and small spindly trees. Also the scope use i assume would have been the best money can by not the cheap nasty Chinese copys that are coming to the market. We also dont have good assess to them super dogs that you English chaps have.

 

[David Barker]

If the real objective was to reduce deer numbers then to change the female season by adding on each end would be the answer. Then reduce the male season by as much or more.

 

[NullMac]

Don’t know what part of Fife you are in but Roe deer are not classed as vermin over the 3000+ acres of Fife I stalk.

Roe deer are a valuable asset that require consistent population management.

As you may or may not know Fife regularly produces some of the best Roe deer heads in Scotland and are definitely not vermin.

Well they are in vermin numbers over this way. Too many acres and not enough stalking going on. I spoke with the neighbouring farmer and the guy "has someone who shoots them". Well he is running a zoo to get the very odd decent head. The "guy"has had to clear out a load of windblow and has hee haw chance of getting anything to grow given the numbers over here.

There was a roadkill just at my junction that I dragged into the ditch. Well I think it was road kill, but it could easily have died of old age crossing the road.

It's a disgrace frankly. Too many amateur stalkers deluding themselves about "herd management", just get them shot.

 

[David Barker]

Well they are in vermin numbers over this way. Too many acres and not enough stalking going on. I spoke with the neighbouring farmer and the guy "has someone who shoots them". Well he is running a zoo to get the very odd decent head. The "guy"has had to clear out a load of windblow and has hee haw chance of getting anything to grow given the numbers over here.

There was a roadkill just at my junction that I dragged into the ditch. Well I think it was road kill, but it could easily have died of old age crossing the road.

It's a disgrace frankly. Too many amateur stalkers deluding themselves about "herd management", just get them shot.

NullMac who decides that there are to many deer. For some having one on a silage field seem to be to many. They see six in winter and think there is a herd. Some like deer and can make money from them. I have seen 30 cows in a single field and dont get in a flush so why are you so upset about deer. You cull your own and leave others to manage theirs. I know that if there was to many then the first thing to suffer would be body size weight then head quality and that has not happend yet.. I am sure you will know that you are in a minority when you call roe deer vermin.

 

[cookingfat]

I think shooting a few Fallow on open fields a wee bit different to shoot thousands of Red and Roe over some of the roughest terrain the uk has. Most deer will be shot on clear fells with thick brash and small spindly trees. Also the scope use i assume would have been the best money can by not the cheap nasty Chinese copys that are coming to the market. We also dont have good assess to them super dogs that you English chaps have.

Yes true David, I currently have a £4000 scope on one of my rifles and spotter is £2200,

There are a few UKDTR dogs in Scotland but nowhere near enough for what would be asked to do given how none toxic performs.

Probably need better follow up best practice training which should be free.

 

[User00038]

NV and thermal scopes have been used to good effect on another night shooting job for NE without to much problems allow a shooting test and ecology lessen must be done first to obtain the the license, can't see why deer should be any different as they are a much bigger target, the problems may come when people start shooting past the recommended distances.

I think the concern is that the backstop requirements for deer, compared with the other job, are more demanding and less easy to assess. Night shooting training and assessment is a good thing, I reckon.

Well they are in vermin numbers over this way. Too many acres and not enough stalking going on. I spoke with the neighbouring farmer and the guy "has someone who shoots them".

Hahaha! The number of farmers around here who have 'someone who takes care of the deer'... the situation is desperate. In England, we need some fundamental change - I hope the deer management strategy consultation comes up with something positive. And not the ridiculous removal of male close season, which merely serves to undermine anyone's confidence in the 'experts'.

 

[LuckyEddie]

Well they are in vermin numbers over this way. Too many acres and not enough stalking going on. I spoke with the neighbouring farmer and the guy "has someone who shoots them". Well he is running a zoo to get the very odd decent head. The "guy"has had to clear out a load of windblow and has hee haw chance of getting anything to grow given the numbers over here.

There was a roadkill just at my junction that I dragged into the ditch. Well I think it was road kill, but it could easily have died of old age crossing the road.

It's a disgrace frankly. Too many amateur stalkers deluding themselves about "herd management", just get them shot.

Is it not up to the landowner to get the stalker to get the numbers down if the landowner is so concerned?
Get the numbers down or get replaced, simples.

Funnily enough this is usually the time of year that deer deaths on roads increase.
I had to perform the coup-de-grace on a young four pointer last month and 20yrs ago actually hit a beautiful 6pointer, causing considerable damage to my motor and had to perform the last rights on it.

How’s your permission doing? Does it have low numbers, or too many?

 

[@theroedeerguy]

I think when it comes to being an effective recreational Roe deer stalker, make sure you can dedicate enough time to do the ground justice.

Don’t take on too much ground, keep the management goals achievable.

If time is of a premium take as many suitable deer as you possibly can per stalking outing.

Do not waste time worrying or getting frustrated about what neighbours or other stalkers “say” they are doing or not doing in terms of deer management.

Make sure that you enable a clear and cohesive working relationship with the land owner that keeps you both up to speed with objectives and any needs to make adaptive changes to the long term goal.

Most importantly, make sure you take time to enjoy the experience and continuous learning process that deer stalking is.

 

[Dunwaters]

I will personally be very surprised if deer numbers drastically reduce in the central belt of Scotland just by doing away with out of season, and allowing thermals along with night shooting permissions, the wee rascals are no stupid and will just become more spookier and transient.

Couple night vision devices with a year long season and venison market and you’ll get your numbers down.
Initially venison prices will tumble, then rise as numbers decline.
The more valuable each deer becomes the more effort people will be prepared to put into getting one.