BASC response to proposed Scottish deer management changes

[rookstorm]

Don’t know what part of Fife you are in but Roe deer are not classed as vermin over the 3000+ acres of Fife I stalk.

Roe deer are a valuable asset that require consistent population management.

As you may or may not know Fife regularly produces some of the best Roe deer heads in Scotland and are definitely not vermin.

Deer as vermin??​

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19 Nov 2018 · 20 posts · 1 author
All deer can be classed as vermin when they become agricultural pests, the same as any other animals that become a nuisance to farmers.

 

[rookstorm]

Deer as vermin??​

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19 Nov 2018 · 20 posts · 1 author
All deer can be classed as vermin when they become agricultural pests, the same as any other animals that become a nuisance to farmers.

Only saying what i read

 

[rookstorm]

Don’t know what part of Fife you are in but Roe deer are not classed as vermin over the 3000+ acres of Fife I stalk.

Roe deer are a valuable asset that require consistent population management.

As you may or may not know Fife regularly produces some of the best Roe deer heads in Scotland and are definitely not vermin.

Only a valuable asset if your a guide / stalker charging daft money ,theyre not a valuable asset where i shoot them .At £2.00 a kilo your not going to be a millionaire quick

 

[User00053]

Probably better to say that some landowners regard deer as pests and wish them removed from their land as not welcome and regard them as vermin in some cases and others not.

 

[Pete6.5]

Only a valuable asset if your a guide / stalker charging daft money ,theyre not a valuable asset where i shoot them .At £2.00 a kilo your not going to be a millionaire quick

I think a good percentage of people in work aren't going to become a millionaire quick

 

[@theroedeerguy]

Only a valuable asset if your a guide / stalker charging daft money ,theyre not a valuable asset where i shoot them .At £2.00 a kilo your not going to be a millionaire quick

Each to their own but for me the value of Roe deer goes far beyond simple finances.

For me they provide a significant source of meat for family and friends throughout the year.

I place a massive value on the enjoyment I take learning about their habits, biology and behaviour.

I do supplement some ammunition costs by selling some of the carcasses.

If you sold your Roe deer to Peterborough Game you’d get £2.40 per kg collection from Fife most Mondays.

 

[StephenToast]

Each to their own but for me the value of Roe deer goes far beyond simple finances.

For me they provide a significant source of meat for family and friends throughout the year.

I place a massive value on the enjoyment I take learning about their habits, biology and behaviour.

I do supplement some ammunition costs by selling some of the carcasses.

If you sold your Roe deer to Peterborough Game you’d get £2.40 per kg collection from Fife most Mondays.

It's lovely that you think they are really pretty and all lovely. You may think differently if they were costing you money every day by eating five pound notes from your bank account.

 

[@theroedeerguy]

It's lovely that you think they are really pretty and all lovely. You may think differently if they were costing you money every day by eating five pound notes from your bank account.

Just because you appreciate the value in something doesn’t mean you don’t appreciate the impact they have.

As a former full time stalker and contractor I put my skills to good use shooting a good number of Roe per year shooting around 100 per year in between working full time and having a young family ensuring that they have a minimal impact on my landowners assets.

 

[Boosh]

Foxes will travel many miles, so even if you managed to "clear" your area during winter, you're still going to end up with foxes cubbing on your ground in spring. That is, unless you shoot them all year round. Foxes do the most damage to wildlife in spring/early summer, when all other animals/birds are trying to raise their young. This is the most important time to be controlling them, not give them a closed season!
This is were the difference lies between someone controlling foxes for a living and someone doing it for hobby/sport.

Really? They travel many miles?
What? They do most damage in spring/early summer?
Wow!

This is where (not were) the difference lies.
Some folk have been out quite a lot over the past winter, on ground they know and frequent regulary.
Taken all residents, taken all 'many miles' foxes replacing residents.
Then get to cubbing season and don't see a single thing for months because they have cleared there own, and sponged up everything from the surrounding areas that the fair weather, springtime noddys have missed because it's too cold, late, boring to spend many hours behind a thermal in one spot just in the off chance.
Yep that's the difference between people that do it for a living and those that do if for sport.

 

[jall55]

Really? They travel many miles?
What? They do most damage in spring/early summer?
Wow!

This is where (not were) the difference lies.
Some folk have been out quite a lot over the past winter, on ground they know and frequent regulary.
Taken all residents, taken all 'many miles' foxes replacing residents.
Then get to cubbing season and don't see a single thing for months because they have cleared there own, and sponged up everything from the surrounding areas that the fair weather, springtime noddys have missed because it's too cold, late, boring to spend many hours behind a thermal in one spot just in the off chance.
Yep that's the difference between people that do it for a living and those that do if for sport.

Yes probably some good truths in this
I am out most nights of the week and really hammer the foxes hard before the breeding season
The cover is up - but the hay is just getting cut these last few weeks
I have not seen one litter yet

 

[roaring_stag]

Out of interest, can anyone here advise on the time it will take to pass an amendment/secondary legislation to enact these changes? I remember when the DWG recommendations were published, it was assumed that any secondary legislative changes would be made ‘within the current parliamentary term’.

Do the legal minds amongst us know whether this is 6 months/12 months/2 years away?

RS

 

[Sol]

Just off the top of my head but none of these changes effect no ones business, require license updating etc so I wouldn't see it being terribly far away? Maybe even the end of this year that's just logical speaking, in reality they'll probably try drag it out 2 years.

 

[slider]

Out of interest, can anyone here advise on the time it will take to pass an amendment/secondary legislation to enact these changes? I remember when the DWG recommendations were published, it was assumed that any secondary legislative changes would be made ‘within the current parliamentary term’.

Do the legal minds amongst us know whether this is 6 months/12 months/2 years away?

RS

Remember the DWG report was released pre COVID which sidelined almost everything. We also have a Govt that is focused on policies that reach the independence agenda.
NatureScot have been working away in the background understanding all the trails the report recommended and given the current rumblings I suspect this will be passed within a year.

 

[David Barker]

Couple night vision devices with a year long season and venison market and you’ll get your numbers down.
Initially venison prices will tumble, then rise as numbers decline.
The more valuable each deer becomes the more effort people will be prepared to put into getting one.

Dunwater that wont happen and numbers will rise not fall. Most of the people in the central belt area dont shoot deer because of a cash insentive they do it because they love being out after roe deer mainly Bucks.

 

[Dunwaters]

Dunwater that wont happen and numbers will rise not fall. Most of the people in the central belt area dont shoot deer because of a cash insentive they do it because they love being out after roe deer mainly Bucks.

Perhaps that’s the problem?
Populations are rising and will continue to rise, a fundamental change in management strategy is required.
In at least one area I know of deer management is now based on a “shoot on sight“ policy. It works, provided your strategy is solely to get numbers down.

 

[David Barker]

Perhaps that’s the problem?
Populations are rising and will continue to rise, a fundamental change in management strategy is required.
In at least one area I know of deer management is now based on a “shoot on sight“ policy. It works, provided your strategy is solely to get numbers down.

Its impossible to work to that strategy in an area so fragmented. The legislation being put forward by Government will only help remove stags from large estates. This could be the plan !!. FLS SNH/Nature.scot have followed the shoot on sight policy for 20 years now with everything they can throw at deer in scotland. It does not work and to add more tools to the box (Thermal)will not help .It will only make the tool box heavier and more expensive. As was stated by the lowland panel the only way to reduce numbers medium to long turm is to be specific on what is shot and at what time. That cant be done in a lamp nor can it be done at distance with a thermal. (****ING IN TO THE WIND) Remove one male roe deer and you remove one animal. Remove a femal and you remove one female and the potential to produce 16 + more deer long term.

 

[macfarlane]

Have you ever shot a pregnant rabbit and gutted it?
I‘ve done a number over the years.

So someone with NV shoots a pregnant doe or hind and then have to gut it?
Will they leave the fetus wriggling as they carry out the remainder of the gralloch, will they use another bullet, or will a knife suffice?
Should this be written into the Best Practice?

How should you dispose of the extra gralloch - remember there was uproar last year (?) regarding the remains of a deer that was poached and the fetus left on the ground.
I’ll say it now, there will be members of the public that will stray on these remains and cause a who-ha about it, and say “how callous the stalkers are”.
It will happen, no matter how hard you try to maintain standards, someone somewhere will slip up and add another marker against stalkers.

Doesn’t that happen already with the shooting of muntjac deer.

 

[homer]

Really? They travel many miles?
What? They do most damage in spring/early summer?
Wow!

This is where (not were) the difference lies.
Some folk have been out quite a lot over the past winter, on ground they know and frequent regulary.
Taken all residents, taken all 'many miles' foxes replacing residents.
Then get to cubbing season and don't see a single thing for months because they have cleared there own, and sponged up everything from the surrounding areas that the fair weather, springtime noddys have missed because it's too cold, late, boring to spend many hours behind a thermal in one spot just in the off chance.
Yep that's the difference between people that do it for a living and those that do if for sport.

So why would you be in favour of a closed season for foxes?

 

[Heym SR20]

It's not the scope's responsibility to identify the hazard though. That is the responsibility of the shooter and always will be no matter whether it's daylight, or night time, with a lamp, night vision or thermal.

Unless I misunderstand the position is to allow image intensifying devices for shooting. Unless people are using their scopes to scan and locate deer, then surely the target and backstop, and it's safety would have already been idenitified by other means.

Given the cost of most image intensifying rifle scopes along with hand held image intensifiers, I am sure that many do indeed just have a rifle mounted one and it is used for scanning as well as shooting.

And its only a matter of time before an image in the intensifier is a person that is mistaken for a deer.

I recently posted about the high rate of hunter deaths in New Zealand where there have been several accidents where a hunter has shot a fellow hunter in the belief that he was a deer. And these are all in broad daylight.

In Scotland we have a right to roam and there are now people everywhere at all times of night and day. And wild camping and bushcraft is the next big thing since lockdown. And nowhere is more than a few hours from a road, even less so with electric assisted mountain bikes.

 

[Heym SR20]

I suspect that in a few decades time there will huge efforts to reintroduce deer - once iconic species into the UK.

We did it with many other species in the UK.

Most birds of prey, and many of the predatory animal species were all effectively extinct in very large parts of the UK all within most our lifetimes. Many others were gone well before our lifetimes.

And it really doesn’t take much before a population gets to a point where it crashes and is non sustainable. But I think sadly that is what many on SD seem to want, along with government agencies.