deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
Probably best I don’t speak my mind.
Freyr and Devik
- Thread starter deerstalker.308
- Start date
All this talking about F&D mods failing got me thinking....well worrying as I have one on my 6.5x55 and when I take clients out it is often the rifle of choice being a nice soft shooting calibre. But the thought of this going up in a hail of shrapnel isn’t attractive. So, I decided to do a full strip down and ultrasonic clean it back to as close to new condition as possible a d check for any signs of damage, cracking, chipping or anything else.
But, before I share the results with you I need to make an admission. I see mods as consumable parts and although my rifles get a thorough cleaning regime by mods just get taken off at the end of a session, put on a radiator, a quick visual inspection and then back in the cabinet until the next time. That being the case my F&D mod has only been opened up a few times over the years and it has never been cleaned internally. I have tried to work out how many shots the mod has had through it. I used mainly factory ammo initially and my records show I bought 400 rounds, then later I have done quite a lot of load development on this one and based on the number of cases I bought and the number of firings they have had (+I reloaded the factory ammo cases) I estimate this mod has had between 1100 to 1300 rounds through it.
So when I opened it up (luckily I had used ceramic grease on the threads the last time I opened it) it was not a pretty sight. My first observation was that upon unscrewing it the section that actualy unscrewed was the thread that holds the barrel thread.....yep the bit they say is sealed and should not be opened. Well it clearly was not sealed very well as all I did was twist the top and bottom outer case in opposite directions and that was the thread that undone.
I was then faced with a very sooty internal section. On my model there is a shroud that covers the baffles which just slips on. That was definitely not coming off and seemed to have welded itself on. So I just dropped the whole lot into the ultrasonic cleaner. About half an hour in I removed the baffle section and managed to separate the shroud before putting it back in the cleaner. After an hour I was left with a very dirty cleaner so I rinsed the parts, popped them on a rad and the pictures of what the internals are like are below...
Surprisingly, the internals of the Mod look virtually spotless and there is no sign of damage. This got me thinking...Did the fact I haven’t cleaned it allowed the carbon to build up and form a protective layer? Or, if there have been cases of the internals corroding, is it a batch issue, either a batch of poor raw materials or a change to whats being used or how it’s being used?
Anyway, thought it was worth sharing.
But, before I share the results with you I need to make an admission. I see mods as consumable parts and although my rifles get a thorough cleaning regime by mods just get taken off at the end of a session, put on a radiator, a quick visual inspection and then back in the cabinet until the next time. That being the case my F&D mod has only been opened up a few times over the years and it has never been cleaned internally. I have tried to work out how many shots the mod has had through it. I used mainly factory ammo initially and my records show I bought 400 rounds, then later I have done quite a lot of load development on this one and based on the number of cases I bought and the number of firings they have had (+I reloaded the factory ammo cases) I estimate this mod has had between 1100 to 1300 rounds through it.
So when I opened it up (luckily I had used ceramic grease on the threads the last time I opened it) it was not a pretty sight. My first observation was that upon unscrewing it the section that actualy unscrewed was the thread that holds the barrel thread.....yep the bit they say is sealed and should not be opened. Well it clearly was not sealed very well as all I did was twist the top and bottom outer case in opposite directions and that was the thread that undone.
I was then faced with a very sooty internal section. On my model there is a shroud that covers the baffles which just slips on. That was definitely not coming off and seemed to have welded itself on. So I just dropped the whole lot into the ultrasonic cleaner. About half an hour in I removed the baffle section and managed to separate the shroud before putting it back in the cleaner. After an hour I was left with a very dirty cleaner so I rinsed the parts, popped them on a rad and the pictures of what the internals are like are below...
Surprisingly, the internals of the Mod look virtually spotless and there is no sign of damage. This got me thinking...Did the fact I haven’t cleaned it allowed the carbon to build up and form a protective layer? Or, if there have been cases of the internals corroding, is it a batch issue, either a batch of poor raw materials or a change to whats being used or how it’s being used?
Anyway, thought it was worth sharing.
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I was at the range a couple of weeks ago and one of the guys with me took his first shot and there was an enormous flame out of his mod......seems like his regime of spraying oil into the mod is not a good idea.
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
Alright for some! Lucky bugger...... you may be right? But, and it’s a big but, the manufacturer specifically says to keep it clean, so one would normally assume that this was the “best practice” with them knowing their materials used etc.
I think what this says to me is that they have had some catastrophic batch/material issues but that by and large they appear to be good mods, I have since got a replacement baffle sorted out by my friendly local gunshop, not the importers who were tantamount to useless/rude, but hey.
I was surprised by just how good the internals have faired considering the volume of usage including quite a lot of hot range sessions for load development. I agree with your thought process regarding a batch problem and hopefully your new baffles will sort things out.
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
Well the way I see it it it has now doubled (at least) whatever expectations I had of it, although there is a bit of me that feels I’d be best removing the corroded one and just replacing it now, on the off chance there is an inherent issue with the old one, but for now I’m just monitoring it after every shot (I don’t do targets etc so basically after every successful stalk when I’d clean it anyway)
Utectok
Well-Known Member
I’m Almost certain the problem is with poor quality casts or other material issues. I’d say it’s a batch thing mine is immaculate too!
That picture looks spookily familiar to the first photo in my post #224 - any int whether they are the same or there are multiple failures?
Most of the ultra lightweight aluminium moderators will do this eventually - aluminium will fail after a finite amount of cycles.
It's not specific to F&D. I've seen a DPT and heard of older Atec's that have failed like this.
It's not specific to F&D. I've seen a DPT and heard of older Atec's that have failed like this.
You have gone and done it now by cleaning it ha ha.
Whenever I clean my car, something immediately goes wrong with it. Not cleaned it not (externally) for 3yrs. Right as rain (until I typed this of course)
I will add, I also never clean my mods. Life is too short.
Have Stalon and F&D as well as Atec Maxim. My routine is to occasionally unscrew them and give them a simple wipe down with a cloth/brush, I don’t spray them and the only product I use is graphite grease on the threads, I then use an oversize pull through to clean the actual bullet path. In many of the sound test as more shots are built up the mods stop “ringing” as much. I am never to introduce oil/cleaners in to the mod itself for a whole host of safety reasons
Scandially
Well-Known Member
What's a "mod" i hear you say?
stalker.308
Well-Known Member
'pardon' said the man with no mod
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
But that is nothing like the same kind of issue as corrosion of internals, that could easily have been caused by an accidental drop or knock causing a tiny amount of damage to the outer wall creating a weak spot. The internals from what can be seen don’t look too bad....
Where did that one come from? What’s the story behind it? Without context there could be a multitude of reasons for a mod to explode.
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
Are you sure they want that being publicised whilst there are ongoing HSE investigations? I would suspect not.....
Clearly two different ones, displaying the exact same failure mode.
Wafer thin aluminium tube blown apart at where it surrounds the first blast baffle, where the pressure is highest and the gasses that impinge upon it are hottest, then unpeeled and torn off all the way forward, also releasing the end cap as it was ripped apart.
Nothing to do with cleanliness or spraying with oil, or erosion of the first blast part (the bit with the titanium insert) or a bullet strike IMO. Some sort of erosion/corrosion of the weakest part, maybe, but that should have been considered in the design. Besides, I see none of that in the photos.
Good luck to those with squeaky clean ones, who like to take them apart regularly and keep them super shiny, but IMO there may be a material strength and/or quality issue that just might catch you out one day. In an explosive manner. Maybe not initially, but after fatigue, and heat, has got to the oh so lightweight outer bits. I mean, if it takes a small insert of titanium to protect that first baffle from erosion, yet the gasses then impinge directly on the unprotected outer tube, only a few mm away, what might be the expected outcome, after some use ? Sometimes less is not more I think. Particularly for the not inconsiderable expense.
No personal knowledge of these curiosities, but a fairly extensive engineering background. If anyone with one would care to measure up the areas of interest (specifically the outer tube wall thickness, diameter and thread dimensions) then I would be prepared to venture an opinion as to what might have gone wrong. Though I suspect it is pretty obvious from a cursory look.
ISTR another photo of an exploded F&D where the inner tube enclosing the baffle tube let go first, then took out the outer tube, but I can't seem to find it again.
Fact is, anybody so minded can set up as a silencer/moderator manufacturer, the cost of entry is just about zero if you have access to an under-utilised CNC machine, anodising facility, and some bar stock from wherever. And turn (literally) a few £ of material into whatever your imagination suggests, and price point to which you aspire. Knowing a bit about the hard facts of engineering and safety margins, never mind thorough testing, is not a prerequisite it would seem, sometimes.
The photos of the split and exploded Atecs also sobering. Seemingly similar issues, just "created" slightly differently.
The F&D TBH seems to be a simple internal baffle design of relatively small volume, surrounded by an outer chamber to catch the high pressure gasses that escape the first baffle. More like a muzzle brake inside a tube. Obviously appears to work, according to the reputation, so maybe not a bad idea. But implementation is key to pulling this sort of thing off.
Have F&D effed up ? Opinions on the back of a postcard I suppose, unless you are someone injured by one of these and trying to get recompense. Where the first point of call I suppose would be with the UK importer and distributor, this being the usual way with legal liability in this territory.
Compare and contrast:
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