hanavarian bavarian not sure what they can do

[Trufflehunting]

Would be interested to here some background on these dogs
Why are they built like brick out buildings, are they bred for holding wounded deer / boar
can they be used to hunt feather
do they retrieve
do they point (doubt it)
I suspect they are for stalking only but idont know

regards
ian

 

[Orion]

Would be interested to here some background on these dogs
Why are they built like brick out buildings, are they bred for holding wounded deer / boar

The Hanoverian might be described as being robustly built - the BMH very much less so. They can be capable of pulling down Roe deer and bringing the larger deer species to bay. Boar would be a different matter for any dog!

can they be used to hunt feather
do they retrieve
do they point (doubt it)

Not what they are bred for - one of the HPR breeds would be better suited.

I suspect they are for stalking only but idont know

I think you've answered it yourself. The two breeds are blood trailing experts - bar none. Further info on the BMH here http://www.bavarianmountainhoundsociety.org.uk/

 

[andy stalker]

dog

put the two together and this is what you get

 

[rarms]

Aww, Gabi's brother surfaces again! Alfie wasn't it?

 

[Jagare]

Orion summed it up nicely. For tracking and baying boar they need training on boar. This is something that is going to be diffiult in the UK at the moment. There are several Places here and in Germany i believe where you can train a tracking dog on boar under controlled conditions.
I use Fredskog Hund centre. They have three enclosures from a small 4hk with a bit of cover and more open ground to 8 hk of very thick plantation. It can put a dog of for life if they confront a wounded boar with out the proper training. Plus its not good for there health either.

 

[sikamalc]

Personally I see little sense in cross breeding two different dogs. Especially as the Bavarian Breed has only recently been recognised in this country and as far as I know the Hanovarian has not.

Both breeds are bred for blood spooring. Yes they will pull down Roe, my dog jhas done it a few times over the past two years. Baying larger species yes they will do this, and depending on how you train your dog they will never let you down.

I would also disagree that Bavarians are more lightly built than Hanovarians, my dog Bavarian is bigger than many Hanovarians I saw at the CLA this year. Much depends on what you feed your dog on and how you bring it up and train it.

If you want a dog for blood spooring deer, dont try and use it for feathered game, in my opinion you cannot expect a dog to work on deer one minute and then feathered or ground game the next.

ATB

Sikamalc

 

[Paul 600]

If you want a dog for blood spooring deer, dont try and use it for feathered game, in my opinion you cannot expect a dog to work on deer one minute and then feathered or ground game the next.

ATB

Sikamalc

Thats exactly what I expect my dogs to be able to do!

 

[Jagare]

I see nothing wrong with having a dog for tracking and other types of hunting. A lab or a GWP,GSP should be able to be trained for both. Not everybody is lucky enough to own a seperate dog for every thing.
But the Bavarian and Hanovarian are specialist tracking dogs and should only be trained for that.
I was on a tracking course last year and the chap who ran the course had a Hanovarian. The dog was just over a year old and that was 50% bigger than any Bavarian.

Have a look at the dog on his web site home page laid down next to his GSP www.joshundochjaktservice.com
Why would you want to cross a haovarian with a bavarian when both are exellent in there own write.

 

[MarkH]

Dear Malc

There must be something wrong with the hannoverians at the CLA. I have also seen some that are smaller than Lola. My conclusion, the UK is being palmed off with bad breeding stock and a lot of buyers have no understanding of what they are buying.

Breed spec for a male HSH is 50-55cm and 30-40 kg

Breed spec for a BGSH is 48-52cm and 20-25 kg

In essence the dogs may be about the same height at the shoulder but the hannoverian is going to be significantly heavier(almost 2x).

Enthusiasm for rare and exotic breeds seems to have outgrown knowledge and understanding about the hounds themselves. Hunters need to decide exactly what they want their dogs to do first and then see if the breed suits.
Most all the information is not available in English.

Mark

 

[sikamalc]

I agree that Bavarians and Hanovarians should be kept only for blood spooring deer, and its my fault for not explaining this in my initial post.

However if you have a Lab or GSP you could use it for rough shooting and deer stalking. But I feel that if you are a stalker and want the dog to perform to its best ability then you may have problems with it being distracted whilst pursueing a wounded deer by other game it may come across.

I am sure there are many good dogs that can do both, and hats off to those that can train the dog to take on two tasks.

As far as Hanovarians are concerned I have littel experience of them, but I can add that whilst in the gun dog enclousure at the CLA the few Hanovarians I came across where quite small in stature compared to my Bavarian. I also noticed that many of the Bavarians including Todds brother where also smaller. I know they vary in size, and maybe Mark H is correct in what he has said. I do know that there is quite a demand for both breeds these days as they are becoming a popular breed for stalkers to use. However I still do not agree in cross breeding them, but if thats what floats your boat then thats your business.

Cheers

Sikamalc

 

[MarkH]

Here are some breed portraits for the Bavarian and Hannoverian

http://www.wildundhund.de/r30/vc_content/bilder/firma438/Rassehunde/hann_schweisshund_09_2002.pdf

http://www.wildundhund.de/r30/vc_content/bilder/firma438/Rassehunde/bgs_15_2006.pdf

Yes I know they are in German but the pics are good. If you want a dog with an instruction manual in English then you need a black Labrador or retriever.

Mark

 

[paintandpins]

Some interesting veiws. I make no apologies about being fiercely protective about my breed and have no time for those who would harm its distinguished lines. One of the fears on the continent was what would happen when some of these specialist dogs arrived in the UK and I’m sorry to say they were right in their views that we as a nation would be irresponsible with them.
I have spoken in the past on similar topics about cross breeds and how the cons can out way the pros so wont cover it again but the question I would have to ask is why do it? To what end? It doesn’t improve the breeds and you may end up with inferior dog. Financially it may make the breeder, ( I use this term loosely ), a buck or two but then buyers would do as well to visit the local dogs home where cross breeds can be picked up a lot cheaper and the money at least goes to a worthy cause.
When asked why a dog is put to a bitch a breeder should be able to give you the answer to exactly why it has been done. How it is taking his line forward, what characteristics he hopes for ,the working style etc of the parents. I would be interested in an answer as why to create crosses.
This leads on the next point the difference in sizes. This again may well be because in the UK there has been a tendency just to use what is available in the BMH world, which is great if you have a breed with a large base but doesn’t work with a breed where the access to dogs is limited, especially if the breed has a limited gene pool to start with. For example if you want to change a physical trait you look for a dog which will help you achieve this, you don’t just use your mates because it’s the only one you can get hold of. Again ask the breeder why they are using the dogs if you don’t get answer that makes sense then walk away.
The information on the breeds, their training and suitability for handlers can be readily accessed in the UK but people have to look for it and be honest with themselves when they get it. Its no good wanting a particular breed because it’s the latest thing. Part of the problem is handlers having dogs without the knowledge to go with them, leading to disgruntled handlers with unworkable dogs when the whole thing could have been solved if they had been helped with the right advice in the first place. The people I choose to take my dogs as well as those I refuse will attest to my vetting procedures and I am glad to say that I am not alone in this with some other bmh kennels being the same.
If you want to Know about the bmh then give the society a ring and talk to the Peter or give me a bell, however be warned I will bore you to death about dogs so be prepared.

Mark www.paintandpins.com

 

[admin]

Very well put Mark,

Sikamalc

 

[Jagare]

Quite right paintandpins. Have seen the same here in Sweden with the kopov. Its taken centuries for the Slovakians to breed the ultimate boar dog and then you read some one in the adverts section of the shooting press selling Kopov-lab crosses for boar hunting. Very odd.
The same as the Bavarian and the Hanovarian both the ultimate dogs in there field why would you want to cross breed them? Do the peole who do this think they know more about breeding than the Germans who have bred these dogs for generations. Its nowonder that they are not keen to export there dogs abroad.
I've got nothing against mongrels and i'm sure you can train a suitable one to track. Just chose your mongrel and leave the pure breeds alone.

 

[BuckarooUK]

Only this week a numpty brought his new pup to the shoot. I don't think he appreciated me laughing in his face when he told us how he'd paid £800 for a lab-poodle cross. He was desperate for us to call it a 'labradoodle' and seemed upset when we prefered the term 'mongrel.'

There's currently an ad in one of the gundog forums for springer x german pointer pups. He's asking £450! In January's addition of Sporting Rifle is an add for lab x bavarian pups.... folks knowingly crossing these breeds are a bloody menace.

 

[admin]

These people are bloody idiots

Why would anyone on gods living planet want to cross a Bavarian with a Labrador.

It would seem that this is certainly the reason why I have heard rumours that the BMH Society in Bavaria are not best pleased with the English. The breed has only just been recognised in the UK and we have idiots cross breeding with all sorts of other breeds. To achieve what may I ask !!!

Sikamalc

 

[paintandpins]

In deed

Jagere is spot on in wondering if these people think they know better than generations of continental breeders, maybe they think they do, but more likely they are dog breeding/working legends in their own minds.
I get on my soap box when people breed Bavarians without thought never mind crossing them with Labs etc.
The Germans along with other countries are protective about their breeds and any proposed mating has to be cleared. Some of us in this country are trying to do a similar thing by only releasing pups with contracts which say they can not be bred from unless they are capable of passing a tracking test and have been health tested. Once this is done we will go to the end of the earth to help the handler get access to a suitable sire or dam. I have bred dogs for a lot of years but still think of myself as a beginner and i learn something new each time, getting great help and advice from my continental friends as well as my other half having spent a great deal of time learning how dog genetics work. Some of us strive to keep the breeds as they were intended, others it would seem are hell bent on causing not only damage to the dogs but to the UK's reputation, another topic I quite often have with the Europeans.
The one question i would love to have answered is why do it? generations in developing the specialist dog at the top of its game, then with a non existent knowledge base we think in this country we know better, as i said to what ends.

 

[rarms]

I don't understand the protectiveness over the breeds. As long as the dogs are going to good homes, why does it matter if someone has crossbred their dog?

If people know the breed/cross they are going to buy and are happy with the dog they have bought then who cares?

For the recreational stalker a lab might be just as helpful as a bavarian.

Yes the Germans have taken a long time to produce and refine the breed, but I don't see the problem with people breeding them with other breeds, its not like they are trying to con people into buying the cross breeds, if people want these animals as pets then why shouldn't they?

IMHO there are enough rules and regulations out there already, let alone signing a contract when you buy a dog!!! (Is that even legally founded?)

 

[rarms]

And just for a bit of humour, heres my hanovarian taking one for the team:

(They are both female before anyone gets offended. Purely dominance orientated, but happened about 2 mins after the above post so I thought it topically humerous )

 

[stone]

I don't understand the protectiveness over the breeds. As long as the dogs are going to good homes, why does it matter if someone has crossbred their dog?

you may find a vet makes thier living from such breeding
genectic defects is a nasty side effect which you cannot control how it will effect the offspring till it happens, then it is to late and very costly for some
atleast with accredited breeding you can rule out some of these problems even breed it out of a line of dogs if mated to a good standard over the years, but even that is not 100% perfect
as for signing contracts when buying a pup
it is a way the the breeder can control how their breed line developes and reputation is kept in tact, when you hav one of thier pups you then become an embassador to their kennel name
nice pic by the way made me chuckle