Is it time for a change to the seasons?

[FISH BOY]

An hour added each end of the legal daily shooting time or dare I say it, removal of any legal time restriction within the existing seasons for problem species (fallow &muntjac) would certainly help.

 

[nun_hunter]

I don’t think a change of seasons is necessary. Indeed I think there need to close seasons to allow deer to be unmolested for a while.

I do think we need a rethink on how we go about achieving culls required. We can learn a lot from our continental neighbours with the bulk of the cull concentrated in driven type hunts with hunters out in stands and beaters moving things about.

It is perfectly possible to do these in populated areas. I have been such hunts in the suburban of Dortmund and Hagn.

These hunts achieve the numbers required in just the one or days over the winter. Much less overall stress on the animals.

In such hunts neighbouring hunting areas get together with all the guns joining forces. And once everything is gralloched and lardered then the food and the party starts. Typically there will be hunt somewhere in the district once a week, but most woods / hunting blocks will only have one or two hunts a season.

These mostly happen in the depths of winter. There is always a clear cull plan as to numbers, age etc. and as soon as you have shot something you message / radio in so a running tally is kept. Once cull target of say old does, or 4 point roe bucks is achieved all guns are notified so no more are shot.

Typically these hunts achieve 50 to 60% of the annual cull, and in particular its the females, yearlings etc which are taken.

During the summer and early autumn the hunter focus on their own areas and its the time for more traditional individual stalking going after particular animals.

In the UK we seem be constantly chasing our tails with individuals spending a huge amount of time trying to shoot and recover lots of beasts. Beauty of the driven / group type hunts is that the work is shared. A big red stag is difficult to deal with on your own. But with half a dozen of you dragging it to a vehicle its easy.

Such management does require communication and cooperation between neighbours. But since its mutual and reciprocal it just works.

The atmosphere / occasion is more akin to farmer type game shooting where neighbours across a district all reciprocate. I can’t help there is huge opportunity as phaesant shooting gets more and more expensive and problematic, that actually the hunting days of the future will be more on deer management than on game birds.

We might not have many wild boar, but muntjac are pretty the size and speed of the yearling pigs that make a large proportion of cull in Europe.

The huge difference (and ultimate stumbling block) is that in Europe (and America) the overall aim is country or state wide management with an agreed cull plan that is reflective of a huge area. In the UK it is thousands of small privately owned pieces of land with very different views on wildlife numbers.

The culture is very different and something done by individuals or professionals making money from stalking. Neither of these groups would want or benefit from large organised cull days as seen on the continent.

 

[Tim.243]

Adding a month at the start of the season is no different to adding it at the end. The issue of deer 'wising up' will be the same at the end of the season if it starts a month earlier or ends a month later.

No different to daylight savings time, the day is still just as long no matter when you start it.

There is a Native American saying "only the white man would cut the bottom off his blanket to sew on the top and believe he had a longer blanket".

Making the doe season longer does make sense, for welfare reasons adding a month at the end makes more sense but as to deer getting wise by the end it matters not when the end is but how long it goes on.

According to my Sun-Dial app with the hour each way
August 1st 04.24am > 21.47pm around 17hrs
November 1st 6am > 5.30pm around 11.5 hrs

It is good to get different opinions but the difference is around 5+ hours no matter what end of the blanket you sew on.

I posted this after speaking to a farm manager who despite a lot of effort has far to many deer, I then watched around 25 fallow I could not clearly identify however that won't be the case come Nov 1st but 5 less hours in the day to deal with them also the weather changes leaving shorter windows to work in, that is why farms race to get their work done when it is dry and you can get on the ground.

The foundation of what guides us today is 61 years old, that has not kept up with farming/forestry practices also expanding deer populations, if it had then we would not be in the position we are today.

 

[VSS]

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The foundation of what guides us today is 61 years old, that has not kept up with farming/forestry practices also expanding deer populations, if it had then we would not be in the position we are today.

Absolutely this ^^^

 

[nun_hunter]

According to my Sun-Dial app with the hour each way
August 1st 04.24am > 21.47pm around 17hrs
November 1st 6am > 5.30pm around 11.5 hrs

It is good to get different opinions but the difference is around 5+ hours no matter what end of the blanket you sew on.

I posted this after speaking to a farm manager who despite a lot of effort has far to many deer, I then watched around 25 fallow I could not clearly identify however that won't be the case come Nov 1st but 5 less hours in the day to deal with them also the weather changes leaving shorter windows to work in, that is why farms race to get their work done when it is dry and you can get on the ground.

The foundation of what guides us today is 61 years old, that has not kept up with farming/forestry practices also expanding deer populations, if it had then we would not be in the position we are today.

I was referring to the month at the end making no discernable difference to a month at the end in terms of how "wise" the deer are.

Yes you'd get more hours of daylight a month earlier but I doubt very very if any stalkers are out 17 hours a day so it makes little difference.

The issue of moving the season a month earlier is one of welfare compared to the end of the season regardless if the impact on farmers. Farmers can use section 7 defence if needed or apply for night licences which will have just as much of an impact on deer numbers shot but likely less of a welfare impact as it won't be every stalker out shooting does with dependent fawns.

 

[slider]

It's also nonsense.
It's just a bleat put out there by Scottish stalkers who don't like the fact that their "traditional" dates have been amended, instead of celebrating the fact that a bit of regulation has actually been relaxed - an almost unprecedented situation in the UK!
Shooting a pregnant fallow doe in late April is neither here nor there, as far as the unborn foetus is concerned. It's not exactly going to jump out and shout BOO! in your face!
Best practice for muntjac states shoot does when heavily pregnant, and I don't hear any pansies making a fuss about that!

Perhaps English and Welsh stalkers are like roe deer: tougher than the ones in Scotland

We also have a General Licence in Scotland that allows us to take juveniles (under 12 months old) of any sex at any time of year.
That would help the OP.

 

[Tim.243]

I was referring to the month at the end making no discernable difference to a month at the end in terms of how "wise" the deer are.

Yes you'd get more hours of daylight a month earlier but I doubt very very if any stalkers are out 17 hours a day so it makes little difference.

The issue of moving the season a month earlier is one of welfare compared to the end of the season regardless if the impact on farmers. Farmers can use section 7 defence if needed or apply for night licences which will have just as much of an impact on deer numbers shot but likely less of a welfare impact as it won't be every stalker out shooting does with dependent fawns.

You swerved that part neatly..
And some of the reasons night licences are issued will be the deer are not getting shot during normal hours

The foundation of what guides us today is 61 years old, that has not kept up with farming/forestry practices also expanding deer populations, if it had then we would not be in the position we are today.

 

[Heym SR20]

The huge difference (and ultimate stumbling block) is that in Europe (and America) the overall aim is country or state wide management with an agreed cull plan that is reflective of a huge area. In the UK it is thousands of small privately owned pieces of land with very different views on wildlife numbers.

The culture is very different and something done by individuals or professionals making money from stalking. Neither of these groups would want or benefit from large organised cull days as seen on the continent.

You are correct in part. However in Scotland in upland Deer Management Groups have worked closely with neighbouring estates working together with annual deer counts etc etc. Somewhat broken down as new owners take over.

In England most farmers, landowners take in large sums of money every from the state through grants. In woodlands and forestry if you want to fell you need a felling licence, if you want to plant you need a planting plan etc, and if you want grants you need a full plan. With livestock you need movement orders etc.

What we don’t have is a joined up overall environmental plan for our countryside. We did under MAFF, but successive governments have completely removed that capabilities.

What the UK needs is a countryside agency that has three main functions:

1) provides a joined up research and overview of what actually is out there, on a parish, district, county and national level. We have a pretty good idea of what crops are grown, acreage of woodland, numbers of livestock - but no clue as to wildlife, deer numbers etc.

2) is responsible for management of licences and grants. But by doing so they are making decisions based on good local knowledge and in partnership with those managing the land and in the wider community.

3) has the teeth to enforce, remove grants etc. also should have power of arrest for rural crime - poaching, unauthorised camping etc.

And they very much should have a local presence with known individuals who look after local areas and really know the ground.

Our current agencies are just sitting behind desks looking at computer screens and making policy based on guesswork. Our forestry agencies (whatever they are called this week) doesn’t talk with agriculture and neither talk with the environment agency or planning etc etc Its just a complete cluster **** with huge amounts of tax payers money being ****ed up against the wall.

 

[Rutland lad]

Very interesting to read.

For me, simple fact is this less females = less deer

A simple embargo on males for a single season could encourage those that turn their noses up at shooting ‘mere hinds/does’ to knock down more females. I realise this won’t be popular for the reason that many estates want and need the income from trophy males. But if the Government want the numbers reducing then perhaps a bounty should be forthcoming on each female to offset lost income to the farmer or estate.

The fact is that if you have a herd of 50 female deer and one male, by the end of the rut most of the females will be pregnant.
If there’s a herd of 50 male deer and one female, there’ll only be one more deer next year !

Perhaps we are as a group just not addressing the obvious.

 

[Rake Aboot]

Yup
We have deer number problems all over Scotland so they removed the season for males of all species.!

Hmmm?

 

[Jh1986]

There's probably far more public optics involved in decisions like this, then maybe there ever would have been many years ago.

The optics on shooting stags and bucks are very different to the optics on shooting does and pregnant does.

 

[VSS]

Yup
We have deer number problems all over Scotland so they removed the season for males of all species.!

Hmmm?

It is at least a step in the right direction towards relaxing regulation sufficiently to allow people to get on with doing a job.
Who knows, perhaps relaxation of the female seasons will come next?

 

[Rutland lad]

Yup
We have deer number problems all over Scotland so they removed the season for males of all species.!

Hmmm?

Only needs one busy stag ……..

 

[RCS Deer Management]

My comments are from what I see so if the seasons are working why do we have so many deer?

Because people are very bad at killing deer. I don’t see why deer should suffer from earlier seasons just because stalkers in some areas are so inefficient. I disagree entirely that fawns don’t currently need the doe, in this area (midlands) the fawns are definitely still dependent on their mothers.

 

[Tim.243]

Because people are very bad at killing deer. I don’t see why deer should suffer from earlier seasons just because stalkers in some areas are so inefficient. I disagree entirely that fawns don’t currently need the doe, in this area (midlands) the fawns are definitely still dependent on their mothers.

You can disagree all you like but what the post said.
What I saw yesterday was a group come out of what I have nicknamed "the jungle" on a second farm boundary, that group turn out to be 25 by the time they all filed out.

All feeding/grazing on a volunteer patch which will be a crop when it is drilled, 3/4 lead does the rest milling around (as they do)
There will have been young bucks but nothing to give a clear indication, then they move on as they do.
later on from the boundary corner a lead doe and 6 youngster's filled along my side all stopping to graze but with only 5mins of last legal light and no time to cover the distance for any ID.

It is as simple as that..
No matter as you always learn something so I went back to watch them cutting across the field on a well used route so come Nov and the right wind then I will get on with what I have been asked to do.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

You can disagree all you like but what the post said.
What I saw yesterday was a group come out of what I have nicknamed "the jungle" on a second farm boundary, that group turn out to be 25 by the time they all filed out.

All feeding/grazing on a volunteer patch which will be a crop when it is drilled, 3/4 lead does the rest milling around (as they do)
There will have been young bucks but nothing to give a clear indication, then they move on as they do.
later on from the boundary corner a lead doe and 6 youngster's filled along my side all stopping to graze but with only 5mins of last legal light and no time to cover the distance for any ID.

It is as simple as that..
No matter as you always learn something so I went back to watch them cutting across the field on a well used route so come Nov and the right wind then I will get on with what I have been asked to do.

I still struggle to see your point? You saw a small handful of deer on your boundary out of season so you think the seasons should be changed so that you can shoot them whenever you like? How much effort has been put into culling them in season? Before I could justify the thought of shooting females with dependents I would want to show that I had exhausted all other possibilities. Surely night shooting within the existing season would be a much more ethical way forward? You keep saying that you saw a bunch of fawns with one or two does but this is hardly scientific evidence that they are now non dependent. I would expect that the other does were very close by.

 

[VSS]

You keep saying that you saw a bunch of fawns with one or two does but this is hardly scientific evidence that they are now non dependent. I would expect that the other does were very close by.

Fallow fawns form crèches from just a few weeks old, with groups of half-a-dozen or more fawns under the care of just one or two does, while their mothers graze. So to see such groups is completely normal, and as you say it's got nothing to do with them being no longer dependent. They most certainly are!
The current start of the doe season is based on the assumption that the majority of fawns would be capable of living independently from this point onwards, if deprived of the mother. It doesn't mean that they're already independent at this stage. I have seen fallow fawns still suckling in March, so they'd have been 9 months old by that time.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Fallow fawns form crèches from just a few weeks old, with groups of half-a-dozen or more fawns under the care of just one or two does, while their mothers graze. So to see such groups is completely normal, and as you say it's got nothing to do with them being no longer dependent. They most certainly are!
The current start of the doe season is based on the assumption that the majority of fawns would be capable of living independently from this point onwards, if deprived of the mother. It doesn't mean that they're already independent at this stage. I have seen fallow fawns still suckling in March, so they'd have been 9 months old by that time.

I normally start seeing independent buck fawns that are kicked off in February. This isn’t to say that they are all kicked off then, just that I start noticing one or two moving around on their own. At the start of November I try not to leave fawns on their own, by the new year I’m normally pretty relaxed about this.

 

[Tim.243]

I still struggle to see your point? You saw a small handful of deer on your boundary out of season so you think the seasons should be changed so that you can shoot them whenever you like? How much effort has been put into culling them in season? Before I could justify the thought of shooting females with dependents I would want to show that I had exhausted all other possibilities. Surely night shooting within the existing season would be a much more ethical way forward? You keep saying that you saw a bunch of fawns with one or two does but this is hardly scientific evidence that they are now non dependent. I would expect that the other does were very close by.

These deer use this small farm as a corridor 25 came from the neighbours (as they do most days) in the 25 were 5 older does so out of the 20 ish I could not pick out a male so let them pass on their way..
Later a big doe had 6 youngsters in tow who again came off the neighbours on to my bit but it was past the 1 extra hour so
I watched them (as you learn something)
The post was about a conversation I had with next doors manager and echoed what we spoke about as his stalker is busy but like me only shoots their ground also I just picked this land up in Feb so first season seeing it from start to finish (hence seeing youngsters)
10 of the 11 I have shot so far are in the last hour (dark)
You cant control what people can or don't do as big farms get on with farming!

My first trip there were around 50-60 and i picked out a Buck from one of the 3 groups.
Most trips to the farm passing the neighbours land I would see groups either side of the road.


As I said the basis of the 1963 deer act is 61 years old these days we use drones nv trail cams thermal spotters mobile phone and the kitchen sink and still can't keep up lol

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

The end of the fallow doe season certainly ought to be extended to bring it up to the same date as the end of the male season (end of April).
Not so sure I'd want to bring the opening date for females forward though. It would be ok if you shot a fawn in August and were then immediately able to nail the mother, but shooting does and leaving fawns would be a pretty harsh thing to do. They're still dependent at this stage.

Agreed.

Although the mums are pretty dependent in some ways.

The last yearling I shot- which dropped after 2 steps- the mother hind screamed and ran up to it distressed. After looking around and sniffing it a bit- fear forced it to follow the rest of the herd who had trotted off after the shot. The mother hind kept stopping and looking back.

Perhaps not physically dependent- but emotionally- the mothers absolutely are.