Marksmanship Standards - follow up - what should the course of fire be for testing a Scottish stalker?

[oldhamstocks]

Spot on. Living in Edinburgh I find this a major challenge and 99% of us face the same challenge.
Regards
JCS

Amazing to think there was a full firing range at Hunter's Bog just downhill from Arthur's Seat!

 

[gixer1]

Mmm! I did wonder but would "up" be left or right!

In my head right would be up and left down….

 

[Selous]

To me the greatest advantage of an annual skills test is that it encourages people to practice. There have been many posts in this thread already that agree that practicing with a rifle is beneficial but (and this is a big thing) stalkers often don’t do enough practice. Now clearly this is a generalisation but there are opportunities to practice around the country on a fairly regular basis that people do not take up. Yes there may be travelling involved and certain costs that are generally proportional to the investment in the facilities, but the problem remains that practice days are often poorly attended. In the NW Branch of the BDS we have run regular range days for years and a lot of them will have the same 10-15 people attending. The costs are quite low and you might even get fed as well.

So my question is this, if people do not want to have a voluntary or perhaps mandatory skills test, how can people be encouraged to practice more?

 

[griff]

tested every 12 months, dont pass no shooting...
10 shots in total..

 

[Bo Diddley]

tested every 12 months, dont pass no shooting...
10 shots in total..

You are joking griff??

 

[griff]

You are joking griff??

Nope not joking! £40 down the tube just to put 10 holes in paper, and 40 mile round trip.

 

[potshotpat]

Technically it would still function…. one click up is one click usually…

I've been messing about ( doing scientific research ) with two old air rifles a Diana 52 and a Webly Mercury. Both didn't shoot to bad, before I undertook the scientific research. I couldn't get them both to be spot on with the telescopic sights. I'd like to think that I've a idea what I'm doing ( because I've just told you I'm doing scientific research) on page one of the research I've written on a piece of A4 , two rifles, two scopes, two sets of rings, in an organised order. I'm also shooting from a store bought shooting bench, with proper shooting sand bags. I finished my testing after about four hours ( scopes and rings off, swap about, rings and scopes back on. Change pellets and start again) so results if your interested. I've just wasted four hours of my life, my head hurts, I've been asked to keep my language down and I've only got one rifle to be bothered with because the other rifle has now been wrapped around an apple tree. The apple tree is not in my garden, I missed that, and hit the apple tree next door but one.

 

[Bo Diddley]

I've been messing about ( doing scientific research ) with two old air rifles a Diana 52 and a Webly Mercury. Both didn't shoot to bad, before I undertook the scientific research. I couldn't get them both to be spot on with the telescopic sights. I'd like to think that I've a idea what I'm doing ( because I've just told you I'm doing scientific research) on page one of the research I've written on a piece of A4 , two rifles, two scopes, two sets of rings, in an organised order. I'm also shooting from a store bought shooting bench, with proper shooting sand bags. I finished my testing after about four hours ( scopes and rings off, swap about, rings and scopes back on. Change pellets and start again) so results if your interested. I've just wasted four hours of my life, my head hurts, I've been asked to keep my language down and I've only got one rifle to be bothered with because the other rifle has now been wrapped around an apple tree. The apple tree is not in my garden, I missed that, and hit the apple tree next door but one.

I think springers don't take kindly to being shot off bags and such like, you always get the best from shouldering the rifle and maybe using a post or tree as a support for your arm, old skool shooting with springers.

 

[potshotpat]

I think springers don't take kindly to being shot off bags and such like, you always get the best from shouldering the rifle and maybe using a post or tree as a support for your arm, old skool shooting with springers.

Thanks for that. I appreciate your reply. I'm just going for a nap until next 3 down 5 right

 

[Buchan]

I guess that depends where the beast stops…

And so your requirements for a test are derived from your shooting scenario - which is fine, however I would wager most shots taken on roe deer are well under 150m….and many on reds too…

Again, this is where different scenarios come into effect.

Regards,
Gixer

and the 150m used to be the "Highland DSC1"

 

[bogtrotter]

Testing, only what the estate and the stalker demand. Their ground, their deer, their responsibility, their call.

A good course of fire for practice ahead of a stalk that'd make for a decent range day for the recreational highland stalker?

Something along the lines of 300yds prone supported, 200yds prone unsupported, 200yds sitting/kneeling with stick, 100yds sitting/kneeling no stick, 100 yds standing off sticks, maybe 100yds standing unsupported. All at a life sized deer silhouette with a finely marked 6" kill zone in the 'correct' place for a H&L shot that the marker can see, but the stalker cannot. 5 rounds per position.

Based on my experiences helping with a shoot like this at my old range, I'm willing to bet that most stalkers would struggle, a lot (I've never seen anyone get 100% kills in the 4 years I was involved). But at least they'd know their limitations and might pass on that 300yd shot if it was presented.
[/cQUOTE]

Why? Would never have allowed a client to shoot at a beast at 300 yards unless it was a wounded one, sitting kneeling and standing
are pretty much a No No and sticks definitely
so ,in Highland stalking 99.9% of shots are prone , all the the stalker I know would tell the client to leave their sticks behind bring a normal walking stick by all means but that's to help you climb the hill not for shooting
and would have a few choice words for anyone who tried to take shot standing kneeling unlikely sitting hardly ever but maybe just on very rare occasions .
So while your idea of practice is fine it's pretty
Irrelevant to Highland stalking.

 

[Border]

I've been messing about ( doing scientific research ) with two old air rifles a Diana 52 and a Webly Mercury. Both didn't shoot to bad, before I undertook the scientific research. I couldn't get them both to be spot on with the telescopic sights. I'd like to think that I've a idea what I'm doing ( because I've just told you I'm doing scientific research) on page one of the research I've written on a piece of A4 , two rifles, two scopes, two sets of rings, in an organised order. I'm also shooting from a store bought shooting bench, with proper shooting sand bags. I finished my testing after about four hours ( scopes and rings off, swap about, rings and scopes back on. Change pellets and start again) so results if your interested. I've just wasted four hours of my life, my head hurts, I've been asked to keep my language down and I've only got one rifle to be bothered with because the other rifle has now been wrapped around an apple tree. The apple tree is not in my garden, I missed that, and hit the apple tree next door but one.

BSA Mercury??

 

[potshotpat]

BSA Mercury??

The one that can now shoot around corners.

 

[User00040]

Nope not joking! £40 down the tube just to put 10 holes in paper, and 40 mile round trip.

Was under the impression that FLS contractor holders were responsible for testing their own sub-contractors now...

 

[NickJ]

I think this is an example of where the old Level 1 with shots at a zero target was better than the new format. That group at 100m would be 'sufficient' on a red at 200m

On our (BDS North West England) last range day of the season we do a practice with a 200m target, 4 timed shots to (a degree) replicate culling hinds from a herd.

 

[Ronin]

Up until this year when various things conspired and caused me to call time, l had inherited Hubert Hetherington's old Border Stalkers Rifle Shoot, which was held three times a year just outside Penrith.
lt was kept as a casual affair, but it's intention as old HWH pointed out was to initiate young stalkers into the understandings of the then "Woodland Stalkers Certificate, then DSC1" range test, and to give older stalkers the occasion to catch up on a bit of practice.
l too have seen perfectly capable stalkers go into fits of frenzy over a small patch on a bit of paper, when l knew they were more than capable of good accuracy on any given day in the Woods or up on the Fells.
l believe such as the BDS who hold shoots in their respective regions go a long way to aiding in the ability to practice when possible, and such should be encouraged, however.... Making such into a mandatory requirement might be seen only to be a "Pocket Lining" exercise (which some have already stated in past threads), which may well lead to many giving up in frustration at a time when encouragement is actually needed.

Paper doesn’t hold back the truth

Practice practice practice irrespective of ability or status

Put a Kraft target at 100 mtrs and ask the rifleman to place one shot from standing kneeling, seated and prone in three repetitions into that target

It’s a great leveller

Beware the person that says I don’t have to practice and “everything I shoot at dies”

There should be a competency test in my own opinion ,,,, the format, construction and recording of this is another matter

It isn’t the first time this has been raised and probably not the last either

Probably unpopular but anything to raise the standards of marksmanship and saftey eh

 

[Dunwaters]

In France they have the Chasses test…not doing them many favours when you look at the safety statistics….

I think you’re being a bit unfair and comparing apples with bananas.
Most French “big game” hunting is driven and until the explosion of wild boar involved shotguns.
Theres been a transition to rifles, but, just like everywhere else, the majority of hunters are not in the first flush of youth and have a lifetime of ingrained bad habits, they got a pass because they were already hunting.
I suspect that there’ll be a bit of attrition when both you and I are forced to meet our quota’s by driving deer here too.

 

[gixer1]

I think you’re being a bit unfair and comparing apples with bananas.
Most French “big game” hunting is driven and until the explosion of wild boar involved shotguns.
Theres been a transition to rifles, but, just like everywhere else, the majority of hunters are not in the first flush of youth and have a lifetime of ingrained bad habits, they got a pass because they were already hunting.
I suspect that there’ll be a bit of attrition when both you and I are forced to meet our quota’s by driving deer here too.

I don’t…it’s per guns owned..the shooting discipline shouldn’t really matter should it?

 

[Dunwaters]

I don’t…it’s per guns owned..the shooting discipline shouldn’t really matter should it?

It makes a big difference.
Quick shots at running game as part of a team vs single shots out on your own.
Firearms per head of population over number of accidents per annum doesn’t actually tell you anything, there’s no link between the two statistics.

 

[Bowland blades]

it does not matter how well a guy can shoot on paper to what range nor how he can group 3 or 5 shots . what matters is he knows his limits under the conditions prevailing things like wind, stance , range , visibility , state of breathing at the time in question and how fast he needs to get that shot off .
You cannot go off a group shot in a favourable stance and all the time in the world and you must NEVER go off someone's ability on paper on a range if they haven't actually done a lot of deer , i did this just the once with a guy i used to target shoot with - the worst performance i have ever seen on the deer !