SACS what do they actually do ?
- Thread starter mudman
- Start date
NorthDorset
Well-Known Member
Guys. A Happy Easter to you.
This thread is about SACS. Whilst BASC & DMQ are very closely linked, SACS has nothing to do with DMQ. Are you really arguing against some level of training? I thought this had been done to death.
I know very little about SACS other than a lot of guys on here favour them. I was disappointed in their response to some of the recent high profile campaigns against shooting. Then again there were deficiencies in the response from BASC and CA too.
It was good to see a response from them on this thread. I do hope they will answer the questions it raised.
Regardless I hope all of these organisations pull a lot harder together for all our sakes.
This thread is about SACS. Whilst BASC & DMQ are very closely linked, SACS has nothing to do with DMQ. Are you really arguing against some level of training? I thought this had been done to death.
I know very little about SACS other than a lot of guys on here favour them. I was disappointed in their response to some of the recent high profile campaigns against shooting. Then again there were deficiencies in the response from BASC and CA too.
It was good to see a response from them on this thread. I do hope they will answer the questions it raised.
Regardless I hope all of these organisations pull a lot harder together for all our sakes.
6pointer
Well-Known Member
I went out and bought my first rifle at seventeen that was after a few years with ferrets and terriers. I think i did ok no mentor no help just a .22 hornet and a box of bullets 50 if i remember.
Who has won out of all the competency tests ask your self because it is not the deer stalkers.
Who has won out of all the competency tests ask your self because it is not the deer stalkers.
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
I couldnt agree more, except i started with a bow and arrow, catapult, air rifle, shotgun (and ferreting) then onto rifles, no mentor for me, just time spent in the field from a very young age.
Oh, and i am a member of SACS (and the BDS) and sign up new members on a regular basis.
Cheers
Richard
Moray Outfitting
Well-Known Member
ND - excellent post, very well put in near every regard. 
6P - Cannot agree with your last sentence.
No need to minutely examine substance of it nor the semantics. I 'won' because a snot nosed lad from back street Manchester would not have had access to all the highs and lows of stalking without having had the chance to attend the BDS Management Course down in Stocksbridge back in the early 80's. I did not and do not agree with everything shown on said course, but I shall remain ever indebted to Dieter Dent, Richard Prior, Peter Baillie, Fred Courtier, Stan Armstrong, GKW for the opportunity.
I dont think I'm alone in such a route into this world. Appreciate 'competency' issue is slightly tangental to your point, but arguably a natural progression of that 80's course.
But as ND points out - this thread is about SACs. No axe to grind either way, but I too would welcome a response from them on the points raised previously.
( its Andy writing )
6P - Cannot agree with your last sentence.
No need to minutely examine substance of it nor the semantics. I 'won' because a snot nosed lad from back street Manchester would not have had access to all the highs and lows of stalking without having had the chance to attend the BDS Management Course down in Stocksbridge back in the early 80's. I did not and do not agree with everything shown on said course, but I shall remain ever indebted to Dieter Dent, Richard Prior, Peter Baillie, Fred Courtier, Stan Armstrong, GKW for the opportunity.
I dont think I'm alone in such a route into this world. Appreciate 'competency' issue is slightly tangental to your point, but arguably a natural progression of that 80's course.
But as ND points out - this thread is about SACs. No axe to grind either way, but I too would welcome a response from them on the points raised previously.
( its Andy writing )
jimbo1984
Well-Known Member
+1
You will find that all organisations are run for the benefit of their members, because it’s the membership income that keeps them going.
I understand that some organisations make a considerable part of their income from say sponsorship and donations, but ultimately none of the shooting organisations could survive without their members.
Most, if not all, are run by elected members who call all the shots on polity issues etc, the staff being officers of the association, and it’s the elected members that make sure that the organisation delivers on its objectives etc.
But back to the issues – let’s wait to hear the answers to the questions that have been asked of SACS….
David
I understand that some organisations make a considerable part of their income from say sponsorship and donations, but ultimately none of the shooting organisations could survive without their members.
Most, if not all, are run by elected members who call all the shots on polity issues etc, the staff being officers of the association, and it’s the elected members that make sure that the organisation delivers on its objectives etc.
But back to the issues – let’s wait to hear the answers to the questions that have been asked of SACS….
David
Jimnydriver
Well-Known Member
David BASC... if you would spend the amount of time you spend on here working for your own members instead of cruising about on here trying to score points by sniping away..... Could it be that Ian is obviously too busy away working for his membership to be in a position to answer your questions... I dare say when he does get a spare moment he will get back to you.... So for the moment lets give it a rest.....
David
David
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AllThingsShooting
Well-Known Member
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6pointer
Well-Known Member
David you answered that on behalf of all organisations. I would say you are correct and most do try were possible to help there members. But BASC on the other hand work to help themselves. There members wishes could be fought for but are sadly diluted because of the connections to the decision makers. The government make the decisions and BASC cow tow. Reasons gifts from government departments Arran scheme DSC (Mandatory run by the Private sector) Gift etc. and many other benefits spring to mind.
Were deer stalking is concerned BASC in Scotland are just about dead in the water.
May i ask how the Arran scheme is doing and if it is reaching its goals of training and development. Might be time to ask the government if this type of scheme could be done over the board for all associations.
Ask the question David is BASC really doing everything it can to help its members were legislation effects there shooting hunting etc or do they just take the cash.
My opinion is this had all the organisation decided that competence was not for discussion then it would have stopped there and then.
Were deer stalking is concerned BASC in Scotland are just about dead in the water.
May i ask how the Arran scheme is doing and if it is reaching its goals of training and development. Might be time to ask the government if this type of scheme could be done over the board for all associations
.Ask the question David is BASC really doing everything it can to help its members were legislation effects there shooting hunting etc or do they just take the cash.
My opinion is this had all the organisation decided that competence was not for discussion then it would have stopped there and then.
I hope he does get back to me and indeed the other forum members who have asked questions.
I haven certainly not ‘sniped’ at Ian as you claim, I have simply asked him to clarify exactly what he meant about treachery in the LAG – this is a significant accusation made by the CEO of SACS against the LAG, and I am sure if I were so crass as to make such accusations people like you would be all over me like a blooming rash!!
As to being there to help members, that’s what I am here for, and not just members either to be honest. I wonder how many other reps of other shooting organisations are on line and answering their e-mails responding to members enquires this Easter Sunday?
6 pointer, your unfounded allegations about gift from government, make me laugh – the Aran scheme is nothing at all to do with this thread so start another thread and don’t de-rail this one!
David
I haven certainly not ‘sniped’ at Ian as you claim, I have simply asked him to clarify exactly what he meant about treachery in the LAG – this is a significant accusation made by the CEO of SACS against the LAG, and I am sure if I were so crass as to make such accusations people like you would be all over me like a blooming rash!!
As to being there to help members, that’s what I am here for, and not just members either to be honest. I wonder how many other reps of other shooting organisations are on line and answering their e-mails responding to members enquires this Easter Sunday?
6 pointer, your unfounded allegations about gift from government, make me laugh – the Aran scheme is nothing at all to do with this thread so start another thread and don’t de-rail this one!
David
Moray Outfitting
Well-Known Member
JimnyD - its for David/ Basc to speak for themselves - and it has to be said choose wording more carefully at times!
But here they are - where are the others? Rhetorical question in this instance because we can bat back and forth depending on perspective - 'cruising about point scoring' or taking part and considerable flack when many would - and let's face it, do - say 'forget SD Its not worth the aggro'. Heads they lose, tails you win
Could be wrong, but the impression I'm left with from this thread is that the guy from SACs said some pretty specific things that not unreasonably David and other SD members have asked him to clarify/ expand. Seems a great opportunity for SACs to access 10,000 + membership and not least take a step toward resolving this nebulous 'elephant in the room' that's seem central to this wedge that seems to be distracting us all - individuals, organisation members and organisations from full focus on fighting a common cause. and not least has made for some lengthy, heated and ever boring threads! ( I speak as a guilty party in the lengthy and boring stakes!
)
There seems a large pool of bitterness that divides us all on the issue of Shooting Organisations. Maybe its based on fact, fiction, gossip or a combination of the whole lot. But it just seems to fester on and grow with no progress toward resolution. The SACs guy put something's on the table that look to me an ideal opportunity to bring some of these issues out - then silence. He chose to write those things. I'm not trying to trap him or lead him astray - I would personally and genuinely like to hear him elaborate. Appreciate he could be away fighting the cause etc - but if he had time to write the thing initially, he should have the time to follow through - either in support or retraction.
Nothing personal intended or directed at anyone or organisation. I believe we need a strong voice - lets work together to achieve the best one (s) we can.
But here they are - where are the others? Rhetorical question in this instance because we can bat back and forth depending on perspective - 'cruising about point scoring' or taking part and considerable flack when many would - and let's face it, do - say 'forget SD Its not worth the aggro'. Heads they lose, tails you win
Could be wrong, but the impression I'm left with from this thread is that the guy from SACs said some pretty specific things that not unreasonably David and other SD members have asked him to clarify/ expand. Seems a great opportunity for SACs to access 10,000 + membership and not least take a step toward resolving this nebulous 'elephant in the room' that's seem central to this wedge that seems to be distracting us all - individuals, organisation members and organisations from full focus on fighting a common cause. and not least has made for some lengthy, heated and ever boring threads! ( I speak as a guilty party in the lengthy and boring stakes!
)There seems a large pool of bitterness that divides us all on the issue of Shooting Organisations. Maybe its based on fact, fiction, gossip or a combination of the whole lot. But it just seems to fester on and grow with no progress toward resolution. The SACs guy put something's on the table that look to me an ideal opportunity to bring some of these issues out - then silence. He chose to write those things. I'm not trying to trap him or lead him astray - I would personally and genuinely like to hear him elaborate. Appreciate he could be away fighting the cause etc - but if he had time to write the thing initially, he should have the time to follow through - either in support or retraction.
Nothing personal intended or directed at anyone or organisation. I believe we need a strong voice - lets work together to achieve the best one (s) we can.
6pointer
Well-Known Member
On the contrary David unfounded allegations you say dont make me laugh. You are correct on one thing that the Arran scheme has nothing to do with this thread.
I used it because in the world i live in if you take and take from some one you need to give back. This means that while sacs and others can argue there members case to the full extent BASC need to tread carefully. Lets face it David that is what they have been doing for years at the expense of there membership.
This now is beginning to show in Scotland were sacs membership is growing faster than all and will be mirrored soon in England. I hope Ian answers your question but he he chooses not to then that would be the norm for all the organisations.
I used it because in the world i live in if you take and take from some one you need to give back. This means that while sacs and others can argue there members case to the full extent BASC need to tread carefully. Lets face it David that is what they have been doing for years at the expense of there membership.
This now is beginning to show in Scotland were sacs membership is growing faster than all and will be mirrored soon in England. I hope Ian answers your question but he he chooses not to then that would be the norm for all the organisations.
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snowy
Well-Known Member
I hope Ian answers your question but he he chooses not to then that would be the norm for all the organisations.
Including your own organisation. I wonder how long this thread would have been allowed to run if it'd been called BASC what do they actually do. One for instance on the lead issue has to be the statement from BASC stating no surrender till an alternative non-toxic was found at a similar price/cost and we all remember what happened their.
Including your own organisation. I wonder how long this thread would have been allowed to run if it'd been called BASC what do they actually do. One for instance on the lead issue has to be the statement from BASC stating no surrender till an alternative non-toxic was found at a similar price/cost and we all remember what happened their.
I have no idea what you are talking about when you say BASC has to tread carefully / at the expense of their membership...? But lets keep this on track eh?
If you want to start up a Six pointer v BASC thread then do so somewhere else, leave this one open for SACS to answer the questions asked by me and others -
I have no idea what the membership of SACS is doing, growing, shrinking or staying the same, to the best of my knowledge they don’t publish membership figures, which of course is their right,
I know BASC and the CA’s membership is growing, as is the NGO as far as I know, and all organisations will only grow their membership by recruiting and retaining members, and they only do this by providing services and benefits that their members want and need.
If you want to start a thread about Aran then do it in the training section OK?
Always happy to answer questions about BASC, but do not want to hijack this thread.
David
If you want to start up a Six pointer v BASC thread then do so somewhere else, leave this one open for SACS to answer the questions asked by me and others -
I have no idea what the membership of SACS is doing, growing, shrinking or staying the same, to the best of my knowledge they don’t publish membership figures, which of course is their right,
I know BASC and the CA’s membership is growing, as is the NGO as far as I know, and all organisations will only grow their membership by recruiting and retaining members, and they only do this by providing services and benefits that their members want and need.
If you want to start a thread about Aran then do it in the training section OK?
Always happy to answer questions about BASC, but do not want to hijack this thread.
David
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Ian's made 7 posts since 2009! He must be very busy
Whenever I read about SACS I only ever hear about Ian, but can anyone tell me if there is anyone else on the organisational side of things in SACS?
Do they have a committee or a board? Do they have regional officers?
I ask the question as, much as I admire the rapport they have built with their membership, I just don't see how an organisation like SACS can scale if everything is down to one person? How big is their membership?
I looked on the SACS website but there is no information. Now I know "Ian is too busy fighting for his members to update the website", but it's been like that for years!
On a more generic point, I really don't see how any of the organisations can win - if they are not on here then they're criticised for being too remote from their grass roots members, whereas if they are on here they are obviously lazy good for nothing's who shouldn't be wasting their time on websites!
willie_gunn
Hunting Solutions
Well-Known Member
Does Ian still work out of a shed in his garden?
snowy
Well-Known Member
.
Scots_stalker
Well-Known Member
In my humble opinion this sniping from BASC is very unbecoming .
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