Shoot more Deer !

[baguio]

Driven hunts work safely in crowded countries all over Europe.
In the UK and Ireland we no longer have the culture or skill set but we could import the expertise, after all, roe were shot on pheasant drives up til the 60’s, so it is definitely doable.
You’re very quick to reject the idea of driving deer, but we already know that what we’re doing is not working, we need to do more.

The world has changed. The woods on the continent have been managed for driven shooting for ever. Try running them on NT, RSPB or other charity owned grounds. Not a chance in hell!

 

[shakey jake]

i do wonder why deer are held on such a pedestal. some of the farms i go prob have more deer than rabbits

 

[Twodogs]

From my somewhat limited stalking experience I have perceived the following, note I say perceived and as such have no hard evidence, but if the facts fit anyone will be able to self-identify.
1. Stalking only during the good weather, i.e. mainly in the summer when the does/hinds are, generally, no go. Yes Muntjac are the exception.
2. Only stalking the male of the species, trophy, ego? How many pictures do you see posted of a stalker proudly standing over a doe/hind?
3. Permission holders only selling rights to shoot the male of the species as it is the money earner.
4. Permission holders not shooting does because they will produce the future trophies which equals future income.

If, and if, any of these are factual then we can start to see why we have problem. Unfortunately (?) we live in a capitalist Free Markey economy so most decisions are financially based.

 

[VSS]

Ok hands up who is NOT an old fart

The point I was making was that there are plenty of people taking up stalking as a hobby in middle age, yet very few ambitious young people in their 20s going into deer management as a career. Which is a pity, given the opportunities provided by the huge deer population.
When I consider that my daughter (21) has shot in the region of 1,000 deer over just a very few years, yet there are recreational stalkers tying up large tracts of land for the privilege of taking maybe 20 deer a year tops, it's easy to see that we need more of the younger energy and ambition in the sector if the problem is ever to be addressed. And older stalkers who aren't keeping up with their cull need to acknowledge that and get help, not jealously guard their patch. Otherwise they'll lose it.
A landowner would rather pay someone to do the job properly than be paid by someone who's not achieving a realistic cull.

 

[Ratel]

The point I was making was that there are plenty of people taking up stalking as a hobby in middle age, yet very few ambitious young people in their 20s going into deer management as a career. Which is a pity, given the opportunities provided by the huge deer population.
When I consider that my daughter (21) has shot in the region of 1,000 deer over just a very few years, yet there are recreational stalkers tying up large tracts of land for the privilege of taking maybe 20 deer a year tops, it's easy to see that we need more of the younger energy and ambition in the sector if the problem is ever to be addressed. And older stalkers who aren't keeping up with their cull need to acknowledge that and get help, not jealously guard their patch. Otherwise they'll lose it.
A landowner would rather pay someone to do the job properly than be paid by someone who's not achieving a realistic cull.

Bear in mind Tim, there are not many opportunities for young people to get into the deer Game as a career. Most of them as you yourself know, get a couple of years and then are finished. I have a young lad working with me but he is sensible and is doing an apprenticeship to a trade. His father also works with me and hopefully they not being old farts will take the job on from me.

 

[VSS]

Bear in mind Tim, there are not many opportunities for young people to get into the deer Game as a career. Most of them as you yourself know, get a couple of years and then are finished. I have a young lad working with me but he is sensible and is doing an apprenticeship to a trade. His father also works with me and hopefully they not being old farts will take the job on from me.

Any perceived lack of opportunities can't possibly be due to lack of deer, so therefore must be due to the "closed shop" mentality of existing stalkers.

(As for "a couple of years then finished", well when one door closes another opens. They just have to have the initiative and the determination to step through it before it shuts again )

 

[tim@tcs]

i do wonder why deer are held on such a pedestal. some of the farms i go prob have more deer than rabbits

BDS was formed to stop deer becoming a pest species and to promote their welfare and management. They are one of the main reasons we have a deer act.
You could say they have been a success!
No one I know really wants to do deer drives or treat them as a shoot on sight species but I'm lucky in that my current landowner understands the need for control and wont tolerate Muntjac. so I can shoot pretty much whatever I need but admittedly the last deer I took from the farm was killed running into a fence on the last day of the pheasant shooting season.
I've been waiting for the ground to dry up as even a quad will upset the contract farmer at the moment. I probably see more deer than I can shoot which is about right. Knocking off a few of the resident Roe every year helps but the Fallow are starting to move back in as there is a lot less pressure than on the hills nearby which are full of sheep and ramblers.

 

[big ears]

The point I was making was that there are plenty of people taking up stalking as a hobby in middle age, yet very few ambitious young people in their 20s going into deer management as a career. Which is a pity, given the opportunities provided by the huge deer population.
When I consider that my daughter (21) has shot in the region of 1,000 deer over just a very few years, yet there are recreational stalkers tying up large tracts of land for the privilege of taking maybe 20 deer a year tops, it's easy to see that we need more of the younger energy and ambition in the sector if the problem is ever to be addressed. And older stalkers who aren't keeping up with their cull need to acknowledge that and get help, not jealously guard their patch. Otherwise they'll lose it.
A landowner would rather pay someone to do the job properly than be paid by someone who's not achieving a realistic cull.

Absolutely. I can see the time where we all have to report our cull numbers (not cull plan) to NE and those not doing enough being asked to give way.
Not that I think NE have a scoobies about the issue TBH

 

[tim@tcs]

Absolutely. I can see the time where we all have to report our cull numbers (not cull plan) to NE and those not doing enough being asked to give way.
Not that I think NE have a scoobies about the issue TBH

Probably too busy buying up land for rewilding?

 

[Dunwaters]

The world has changed. The woods on the continent have been managed for driven shooting for ever. Try running them on NT, RSPB or other charity owned grounds. Not a chance in hell!

I won’t be running them, NT and RSPB will do it themselves.
With muntjac they’ll have no choice in the very near future, especially once the new plantations get under way.
You keep saying that it won’t work, but other than some safety concerns that are dealt with as a matter of daily routine on every driven shoot in the land, you don’t say why not, or propose any alternatives.
In the UK your deer control model is based solely on stalking, (same as us), it’s demonstrably not working.
On the continent you have a management strategy using multiple types of hunting, including driven and using dogs to move deer to achieve a defined cull that definitely does work a lot better, so why not copy it ?
Theres going to be a fairly steep learning curve, the expertise is available, why not use it?
Its got to be worth a trial.

 

[Dunwaters]

Any perceived lack of opportunities can't possibly be due to lack of deer, so therefore must be due to the "closed shop" mentality of existing stalkers.

(As for "a couple of years then finished", well when one door closes another opens. They just have to have the initiative and the determination to step through it before it shuts again )

It’s hard manual work that’s quite poorly paid with limited scope for promotion, you would have better career prospects with Mickey D’s .

 

[AyJay]

I have very limited experience in stalking and shooting in general but the biggest hurdles I've experienced (not sure if this is the same for others) is cost and access.

I tried for some time to get access with no success (only as pest control with an air rifle so that may have played a part). I thought that maybe gaining qualifications and bulking up the experience may have helped so I saved up for about 18 months (I have a young family so money is tight) to do my DSC1 course and to go on some paid stalks every 7 or 8 weeks this year to gain the experience ( and maybe make a contact or 2 along the way/mentor opportunities).
I hope this will build a good foundation for the future and I can be more involved, with atleast a reduced cost but I have to say initial cost and definitely connections in the community are the hurdles that may deter people.

 

[VSS]

It’s hard manual work that’s quite poorly paid with limited scope for promotion, you would have better career prospects with Mickey D’s .

But if someone wants to do it, and is committed, they'll succeed.

 

[shakey jake]

BDS was formed to stop deer becoming a pest species and to promote their welfare and management. They are one of the main reasons we have a deer act.
You could say they have been a success!
No one I know really wants to do deer drives or treat them as a shoot on sight species but I'm lucky in that my current landowner understands the need for control and wont tolerate Muntjac. so I can shoot pretty much whatever I need but admittedly the last deer I took from the farm was killed running into a fence on the last day of the pheasant shooting season.
I've been waiting for the ground to dry up as even a quad will upset the contract farmer at the moment. I probably see more deer than I can shoot which is about right. Knocking off a few of the resident Roe every year helps but the Fallow are starting to move back in as there is a lot less pressure than on the hills nearby which are full of sheep and ramblers.

im not sure what your point is.
im lucky in that the group i shoot with want every deer in season shot on site because the boudaries arent shot any where near enough.
i still dont understand why deer are put on a pedestal.

 

[tim@tcs]

i still dont understand why deer are put on a pedestal.

Because they were in danger of becoming treated as pests. To be honest modern stalkers havent failed to manage them its just that the environment has changed and deer have adapted faster than we have. Its a failing but only a minor one. The problem is that deer will become treated as pests and eradicated. I like deer, I love to see them on the land. I dont want them to be in zoos or natural history museums. We have to adapt but not allow ourselves to be pushed into a shoot everything policy or we risk losing them.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

Because they were in danger of becoming treated as pests. To be honest modern stalkers havent failed to manage them its just that the environment has changed and deer have adapted faster than we have. Its a failing but only a minor one. The problem is that deer will become treated as pests and eradicated. I like deer, I love to see them on the land. I dont want them to be in zoos or natural history museums. We have to adapt but not allow ourselves to be pushed into a shoot everything policy or we risk losing them.

Unfortunately where herd deer are concerned they are pests and should be shot on site.

The days of trying to manage them are long gone.

 

[baguio]

I won’t be running them, NT and RSPB will do it themselves.
With muntjac they’ll have no choice in the very near future, especially once the new plantations get under way.
You keep saying that it won’t work, but other than some safety concerns that are dealt with as a matter of daily routine on every driven shoot in the land, you don’t say why not, or propose any alternatives.
In the UK your deer control model is based solely on stalking, (same as us), it’s demonstrably not working.
On the continent you have a management strategy using multiple types of hunting, including driven and using dogs to move deer to achieve a defined cull that definitely does work a lot better, so why not copy it ?
Theres going to be a fairly steep learning curve, the expertise is available, why not use it?
Its got to be worth a trial.

Of course you won't personally be running them.
There are 100's or reasons why it won't work. I have told you some of them but the Hunting with Dogs act would be another. If you used your loaf I'm sure that you could think of hundreds more. Night shooting muntjac is the way ahead IMO and removes most of the issues of driven shooting.

 

[Dunwaters]

But if someone wants to do it, and is committed, they'll succeed.

I briefly considered it myself, but being in the throes of the full disaster that comprises marriage, mortgage and children I just couldn’t afford the financial hit.
I relegated stalking to hobby status and followed another path to penury.

 

[Dunwaters]

Of course you won't personally be running them.
There are 100's or reasons why it won't work. I have told you some of them but the Hunting with Dogs act would be another. If you used your loaf I'm sure that you could think of hundreds more. Night shooting muntjac is the way ahead IMO and removes most of the issues of driven shooting.

No argument that thermal and night vision is a game changer, whether it’s enough I don’t know.
One of the bigger issues with muntjac control seems to be lack of access during the game season, a couple of drives in February or March would sort that out and be a bit of fun too.

 

[nun_hunter]

All of this is based on the fact that people think they must be paid for shooting deer and paid a fair bit.

If deer are viewed as an out of control pest then the people reducing that pest population should be compensated, just in the same way rats or wasps would be.

There is a difference between a hobby stalker like myself who sells a few surplus deer to a game dealer so I can shoot more and keep the farmer happy Vs someone who will come in and reduce a herd of fallow by 80% in a very short while. The second scenario should absolutely get paid and if that level of reduction was needed then leaving it up to someone like me would mean it wouldn't happen as I don't have the time to achieve that.

I'm more than happy not to be paid, and if push comes to shove I'm not going to lose sleep if I had to leave dead deer in the woods in order for me to continue stalking, putting some meat in my freezer and helping the landowner.