Shoot more Deer !

[Dan Newcombe]

This is where there is a rise of community larders , one of the things I have noticed in Scotlands latest consultation is that they want to do away with the venison Dealers Licence or VDL , this will make it easier for communities to create their own larder giving localised produce a chance to get back on local tables.

Community larder have had their flaws in the past due to VDL and volume and poor management but they can work

I tried to get a community larder off the ground when they were talking about gov funding but the actual money was not even close to making it work, it was a 50% grant for businesses to get a larder rather than money available to establish community facilities.

Larders are a pain to administer but I’m sure that if there were facility for people to use them more deer would be shot

 

[John Gryphon]

Venison prices will jump when the war starts.

 

[David Barker]

This is where there is a rise of community larders , one of the things I have noticed in Scotlands latest consultation is that they want to do away with the venison Dealers Licence or VDL , this will make it easier for communities to create their own larder giving localised produce a chance to get back on local tables.

Community larder have had their flaws in the past due to VDL and volume and poor management but they can work

Its a good idea Tulloch sadly there are problems. We have the SVP Scottish venison partnership who are funded by the Forestry Land Scotland and other large processors. Like Christian Nyssen who have the managers in the pockets. They are at the meeting and stop this at every turn.

 

[@theroedeerguy]

I’m not convinced community larders are really able to offer much of a solution.

I think the Scottish government would be better served by providing decent grants to individuals.

Last thing I want to do at the end of a long winters day is drive to a deer larder away from my home/base to wait in a queue to get my deer into the chiller.

Although I have a larder at my home I’d like to increase capacity and a grant would be very helpful.

 

[@theroedeerguy]

It’s a good idea Tulloch sadly there are problems. We have the SVP Scottish venison partnership who are funded by the Forestry Land Scotland and other large processors. Like Christian Nyssen who have the managers in the pockets. They are at the meeting and stop this at every turn.

What meetings are those David?

 

[sikamalc]

This was a problem long before Covid. Anyone blaming the pandemic is looking for excuses.

Yes we all know that. But the pandemic only created more of a problem. Little was shot for most of the winter months, so several months deer had a free range, which left a lot of catching up.

 

[Tulloch]

Gonna put something in a different thread .

I did say community larder do have their issues but so do game dealers . Remembers its game dealers that currently hold all the cards it is them that have forced the lead ban where there's no lead ban, it's them that dictate prices but still don't pass that reduced price to the butchers or to the consumer and its them that, on some periods, for more deer then on other periods devide they have too much.

 

[sauer]

Never work

Carcass standards as been said by some at low….. now imagine a community larder and you turn up and bins still full or place not properly cleaned / wiped down ….
Maybe I’m glass half empty but seen too many shared facilities ruined by manky bar stewards !
Crikey I’m offshore at moment and every day you go to the communal toilet and some low life has left it pebble dashed covered in sh1t and walked away !
Maybe my standards are too high I like stuff cleaned when finished ….
I just think away someone to let side down

Paul

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

Correct.
Things have changed dramatically over the years, and having large areas to manage has never been easy. Each landowner has his/her own ideas of what they require. But some are just after a large sum of money to shoot deer. Others are happy to give it to you for free, keeping deer numbers down, others have recreational stalkers doing the job well, or not so well. There are so many different variables.
There may well be professional outfitters/stalkers retaining more ground than they are capable of managing. You cant be in the two places at the sametime, and some people are reluctant to share ground. Who can blame them for that, when some people just go behind your back.
Some of my ground I share with the 3 Guides that stalk for me. One in particular has free range within reason over all my areas. One area for CWD is shared between all three of us. So I for one do not keep ground all to myself, as the deer still need to be managed according to the wishes of the landowner.

One of my areas which I have stalked for in excess of 20 plus years has recently seen an increase in Muntjac numbers. They have also got a preservation order on two wood lots on the estate, which numbers roughly 2,500 acres. Most, if not all the damage I have seen is not damage by Muntjac..................its Hare damage. There are a lot of Hares on this keepered estate, but the owner does not want them shot. But we have doubled the cull this last winter on Muntjac, although the principle deer are CWD, Muntjac are present, along with the odd Roe, which are new to this part of the world. Again the owner has asked me not to shoot the Roe.

If this was Fallow he no doubt would be ripping his hair out.
In my opinion, for what its worth, I cannot at present see the government doing much at all. Lets face it they couldn't p.ss into the wind straight, and no doubt will be more interested in banning firearms altogether, if Labour, get in. Which seems to be the case at present. I doubt deer will be at the top of their agenda for the time being.
Passing some of the blame onto people who make a living out of deer is ridiculous. There are huge tracts of land where deer are not shot, and also smaller areas where they are encouraged, usually right next door to your stalking, where they spend all day, and then find their way onto your ground at about 11pm.

Large populations need large management. I have had some huge leases in the past. One now called Croik Estate, which was Forest Farm many years back, we were on a penalty clause. We had to shoot the amount requested each year, especially the hinds. This area is north of Inverness and was around 13,000 acres. In 10 years of running it I never failed. This was all Red and Sika. But we still respected what we took, and although we had a target to reach we still showed respect for what we shot. This again I shared with some stalking friends, with the hind cull.

I am rather of the old age of tradition, and respect for what I hunt and shoot, that's me, I'm not changing for anyone. But I agree we are now at somewhat of an impasse where stalking has changed and numbers with certain species, such as Fallow are ridiculous. To me the Covid issue, has caused some of this issue, as few could get out to cull, who's business depended on it, but without clients. Syndicate or individual were generally not allowed, unless it was or is their full time profession. Most constabularies would not except it otherwise. Hence the huge numbers developing over a winter with little or no culling being undertaken.

This subject has shown the kind of rift that stalking faces. But it does none of us any good by laying the blame at anyone's door, professional or otherwise.

An addition as I have just read the above post. There we have it, the Scottish government allowing stags to be shot all year round. Most estates that rely on selling their stags are NOT going to shoot stags all year. Controlling numbers is down to shooting hinds and does. This is typical of any government, and does anyone think Westminster will be any different? They are all a joke.

I agree with everything you are saying, I have given 90% of my staking away to friends just leaving me with 500 on my doorstep.

But I will say my friends are mercenary and are completely 100% to the letter of the land owners wishes which is zero tolerance shoot on site within the law!

It’s not been uncommon in the winter months for them rock up back up at the ladder with 7/8 hinds, but alas, that farm is one place where you can shoot, and you’ll never get to the bottom of the heap!

Too many boundary issues changes of use in land and neighbours, not pulling their weight.

On the 500 on my doorstep, almost 60 animals in the larder over 4 cull days plus the reds are now establishing themselves in the neighbouring farm that’s not shot, it’s just a never ending game of cat and mouse.

 

[south-nofolk-stalker]

Never work

Carcass standards as been said by some at low….. now imagine a community larder and you turn up and bins still full or place not properly cleaned / wiped down ….
Maybe I’m glass half empty but seen too many shared facilities ruined by manky bar stewards !
Crikey I’m offshore at moment and every day you go to the communal toilet and some low life has left it pebble dashed covered in sh1t and walked away !
Maybe my standards are too high I like stuff cleaned when finished ….
I just think away someone to let side down

Paul

That unfortunately is 100% reality, the standards of the few actually getting on with the job and the standards of those who like to think they’re getting on with the job are massively different.

 

[@theroedeerguy]

Gonna put something in a different thread .

I did say community larder do have their issues but so do game dealers . Remembers its game dealers that currently hold all the cards it is them that have forced the lead ban where there's no lead ban, it's them that dictate prices but still don't pass that reduced price to the butchers or to the consumer and its them that, on some periods, for more deer then on other periods devide they have too much.

The game dealer I use doesn’t impose any conditions for lead free ammunition at present.

I was a long term supplier of Roe to Highland Game but voted with my feet after 1 too many dubious carcass gradings and the pricing structure that effectively penalised you for shooting Roe kids during the Doe season.

 

[tim@tcs]

it’s not even working up here in Scotland with s7 etc but we have to bear in mind that it’s stalkers who have got us into the mess we are in.

It’s not working because the Scottish government doesn’t want it to work!

The civil servants are behind most of these plans and they are more left wing than Marx!
The government won’t control things it will only mess them up and leave us to sort out the mess.
Human intervention gave us the landscape we have now but rewilding it will fail as will most attempts to restore the countryside to this romantic idyll that never really existed except in the Hollywood writers feverish dreams of life before the English kings.

The problem will be adaptation to survive but I’m not sure the civil service will get its way.
We aren’t engaged in a war of national survival yet and the powers wielded by government are still subject to scrutiny and public approval which will soon fail when the truth gets out!
I know we all won’t be around to see the future but ensuring that we maintain our standards and our respect for our quarry we will at least pass on to those who follow us our understanding of the value of wild deer and the place they hold in our hearts!

 

[David Barker]

I tried to get a community larder off the ground when they were talking about gov funding but the actual money was not even close to making it work, it was a 50% grant for businesses to get a larder rather than money available to establish community facilities.

Larders are a pain to administer but I’m sure that if there were facility for people to use them more deer would be shot

You are correct and Dick Playfair worked on the principle of use local butchers shops and let them enlarge there premises to include Venison. The money was given but its direction is unknow.

 

[David Barker]

What meetings are those David?

6.2
Marketing and promotion
Tim said that he had benefitted from all the information at the meeting and that
he and Dick had had an earlier conversation to discuss possible actions,
identity, existing collateral etc.
He was looking for input and support for a number of events including a food
innovation event at Edinburgh University (unfortunately not able to get involved
given short lead in time), an event for students at New Lanarkshire College in
March, and the Scottish Game Fair in July.
Joe, John Bruce and Highland Game volunteered their support for the
Lanarkshire event.
Dick said a meeting to discuss the cookery demonstrations with The Game
Fair organisers would be helpful. Tim said he would organise with the Scottish
Game Fair team and that Ardgay, Perthshire Game and NatureScot had
expressed interest in being involved.
Dick advised that he and Tim had discussed what could be done using social
media channels and PR with no available budget and had written a short
paper on this.
Dick said that Scottish Government would continue to be pressed for support
for promotion.
Christian said that our ‘ask’ was inadequate and that we should be asking for
far more.
6.3
Local projects
Alan said that Trees for Life was continuing to look at the prospect of local
venison supply and the Affric Highland project following the Winston Churchill
road trip which had been a great success and really worthwhile in finding out a
lot of background information.
Dick said that knowledge transfer/open day events would be staged for the
small processor pilot projects in SW Scotland and N Argyll this summer as
both were close to coming on stream.
Also, that other initiatives were taking place or being talked about for the
Scottish Borders, Loch Lomond/Wild Strathfillan, and the re-instating of Fyne
Game North under James Scott’s initiative.
Action: Alan and Dick to meet to discuss projects above and other
developments.
6.4
Education
Linzi gave an update on what was happening with regard to Best Practice and
the Hill to Grill project.
Dick advised that another attempt would be made to run the venison butchery
course developed in 2023 and that there were a few people who had
expressed an interest.
Tim’s initiative with New Lanarkshire College (above) was also mentioned and
how this might be developed.


6.5
Constitution and future funding
Richard updated the meeting and said that having the right structure was even
more important as Scottish Venison increased its activity.
The Constitution was being reviewed and also discussion was underway with
SAOS as to the best future structure. It was noted that it was important to have
a structure for the organisation that minimised exposure and risk for its
members.
Proposals would be brought forward for the Board to consider.
Richard also advised that a proposal would be put to the imminent ADMG
AGM to secure an annual grant in place of the current levy system, and that
funding would also be sought from other bodies represented by SV and from
processors.
Action: Ongoing discussion with SAOS with regard to structure, and a proposal
to be put to the ADMG AGM on 13 March re funding.
7.
Any other business
7.1 Christian gave an update on Highland Game recent activity and in
particular their new deal with Aldi that potentially could account for 30,000 deer
on an annual basis.
Christian also mentioned Highland Game’s sponsorship of the Scottish team in
the IKA Culinary Olympics.
He also said that from 1 July Highland Game would no longer be accepting
deer that had been shot with lead.
7.2 Joe asked about the number of male deer being shot out of season and
where the venison was going. Christian said that there was a reluctance from
the private sector to shoot male deer beyond 21 October.
7.3 John Forteith flagged up ScotHot as another opportunity for the sector and
that SWA was attending. Also, that Highland Game, Ardgay Game, Woodmill
Game and Aberdeenshire Larder had engaged with the ‘delivery of growth
through wholesale’ programme.
8.
Date of next meeting
Provisionally Wednesday 24 April. Details to be advised nearer the time.

What meetings are those David?

Scottish Venison Committee i have pasted the minutes of the latest meeting.

 

[David Barker]

I’m not convinced community larders are really able to offer much of a solution.

I think the Scottish government would be better served by providing decent grants to individuals.

Last thing I want to do at the end of a long winters day is drive to a deer larder away from my home/base to wait in a queue to get my deer into the chiller.

Although I have a larder at my home I’d like to increase capacity and a grant would be very helpful.

I feel that would not work as there are many who cannot have proper chill facility,s a community larder in a built up area is the way to go. Make it fully registered and able to take in deer at least three days a week .If it takes off then when a full capacity open up a new one. This way we can pay our Rec stalker proper money for deer and the Government will need to take the short fall if any.

 

[@theroedeerguy]

I feel that would not work as there are many who cannot have proper chill facility,s a community larder in a built up area is the way to go. Make it fully registered and able to take in deer at least three days a week .If it takes off then when a full capacity open up a new one. This way we can pay our Rec stalker proper money for deer and the Government will need to take the short fall if any.

I’m not saying no to community larders but what would be beneficial would be to have individual options available too.

I’d even suggest grant options or some sort of equipment fund so all stalkers can access technology such as thermal’s which enhance their effectiveness.

It’s taken me years to accumulate some decent kit but new entrants especially could really do with a helping hand.

 

[VSS]

It’s taken me years to accumulate some decent kit but new entrants especially could really do with a helping hand.

I should imagine that any young person setting themselves up as a self-employed wildlife management contractor would be eligible for various business startup grants towards the cost of essential equipment.

Likewise, anyone registering as a food business to process and sell venison needs to look into what funding is available in their area. A local government grant covered a significant proportion of the cost of my larder and butchery unit.

 

[Dan Newcombe]

I should imagine that any young person setting themselves up as a self-employed wildlife management contractor would be eligible for various business startup grants towards the cost of essential equipment.

Likewise, anyone registering as a food business to process and sell venison needs to look into what funding is available in their area. A local government grant covered a significant proportion of the cost of my larder and butchery unit.

We were essentially in that position and the community larder idea was born from a need we had ourselves but it was still prohibitively expensive unfortunately.

 

[@theroedeerguy]

We were essentially in that position and the community larder idea was born from a need we had ourselves but it was still prohibitively expensive unfortunately.

Hopefully there might be an alternative funding mechanism available in the near future.

 

[baguio]

Much like yours then. I didn't call anyone crap. I don't disagree with more deer being shot, when required. But I don't like people putting words up that I did not say. I'm fine thank you, getting older and less tolerant maybe.

You know full well how hard it is to manage large herds of fallow. Saying that the team (who are obviously very competent individuals) need to pull their socks up is akin to saying that they're doing a crap job, if not in the same words. Sorry, but you didn't even know that there was a team managing those deer, let alone all the restrictions that have been placed on them. Criticising them, when you also have no idea how many fallow that they have culled is pretty poor form IMO. I will leave it there.