So it’s steel 2’s for pheasants.

[Smellydog]

I guess if you just like killing birds and not preparing them and eating them then it's not an issue but if you do....

 

[StephenToast]

I guess if you just like killing birds and not preparing them and eating them then it's not an issue but if you do....
View attachment 343773

Unsurprisingly from you. More total bollocks.

Again. Been eating stuff shot with steel for nearly two decades. Not broken a tooth yet.

 

[shakey jake]

I guess if you just like killing birds and not preparing them and eating them then it's not an issue but if you do....
View attachment 343773

any idea how hes got on in the last 12 years?

 

[25 Sharps]

How on earth do you get a single ou?

I’ve tried non hp steel (20b) same as the chap above, the birds die but bleed out more than folding in the air as with lead, they kill, but its tests your conscience…. Lucky we‘ll have lead for long as shooting is permitted by the incoming woke commies, shooting will be banned before the transition period is over..

Because the top barrel is choked too tight for steel……

 

[jthyttin]

The study results I posted aren’t pro or anti any type of shot, the results, presented in tabular form, constitute guidance as to what levels of performance you should expect from the various options available out there.

This thread has gone awok, sorry I only only browsed through recent posts. But you quite a guy, claiming 40 yeas of research (I did browse through your link also). Given the time scale, do you suggest that the research is valid and everything should be given the same weight?

Personally, I do believe that quality steel (iron) has an edge over similarly priced lead. But many steel manufacturers are putting out rubbish like shot that's not spherical and not claimed diameter. My experience is very limited (though I tested a lot) and waterfowling only.

 

[Liveonce]

Bollocks.

I've been shooting non-lead, mostly steel for nearly two decades now. Never owned a 3 1/2 inch chambered gun.

Then if your chamber length is 2 3/4” or less and/or your steel shot size 3.25mm or less then you have never shot HP steel unless you load your own and ignore CIP regulations/limitations or your gun has a 3” chamber?

CIP limitations do not apply to the USA. Hence their results allow for them to be able to use the likes of BB size steel shot (or any steel shot greater than 3.25mm no‘ 3) in any chamber length cartridge which is not an option for us. As you cannot buy in the U.K. a commercial cartridge loaded with steel shot in size BB unless it’s a HP steel cartridge and then it will require a 3” or longer chamber.

Not saying steel shot does not work but you cannot compare what they do in the USA cartridge wise with what we can commercially buy in the U.K.

 

[sako85708]

Gamebore black gold 3" steel shot size 3 or B&P Duo steel 2 3/4" in 2s and 3s both HP Our prays answered !! Just get yourself a 3" High Performance gun and enjoy Nearly as good as Remington Nitro Steel BBB's from John Forsey's a few years ago !!

 

[Smellydog]

Gamebore black gold 3" steel shot size 3 or B&P Duo steel 2 3/4" in 2s and 3s both HP Our prays answered !! Just get yourself a 3" High Performance gun and enjoy Nearly as good as Remington Nitro Steel BBB's from John Forsey's a few years ago !!

What do you suggest I do with the rest of my guns?

 

[StephenToast]

Then if your chamber length is 2 3/4” or less and/or your steel shot size 3.25mm or less then you have never shot HP steel unless you load your own and ignore CIP regulations/limitations or your gun has a 3” chamber?

CIP limitations do not apply to the USA. Hence their results allow for them to be able to use the likes of BB size steel shot (or any steel shot greater than 3.25mm no‘ 3) in any chamber length cartridge which is not an option for us. As you cannot buy in the U.K. a commercial cartridge loaded with steel shot in size BB unless it’s a HP steel cartridge and then it will require a 3” or longer chamber.

Not saying steel shot does not work but you cannot compare what they do in the USA cartridge wise with what we can commercially buy in the U.K.

2 3/4 inch steel cartridges have been available for years. You don't even need a 3" chamber. Where have you been?

 

[sako85708]

What do you suggest I do with the rest of my guns?

Carry on using them by using Bismuth or standard steel, just cut your ranges.

 

[sako85708]

2 3/4 inch steel cartridges have been available for years. You don't even need a 3" chamber. Where have you been?

You are right, you don't need a 3" chamber but it sure does help when you want 36grms of BB's steel for geese. "Never mind going for the pilot just shoot the plane"

 

[Liveonce]

2 3/4 inch steel cartridges have been available for years. You don't even need a 3" chamber. Where have you been?

Yes they have.

However this from posts #1,#2, #3 was about applying results obtained in the USA with the U.K. and that is not sensible to do as they are not restricted by CIP standards, which we are.

So they can shoot geese in a 2 3/4” chambered gun with steel BB we (you) cannot as CIP rules require such cartridges to be HP steel which requires a 3” or longer chamber. Even pheasant ( and even some duck) Tom Roster is suggesting steel shot larger than 3.25mm (American 3 and 2) which again is for us HP steel.

We either accept the limitations applied to us by CIP and continue to use are 2.3/4” chamber guns with standard steel like you are happily doing or use 3”+ chambers and then can use what ever steel shot cartridges you like.

Nothing wrong with either option, within the limits of the cartridge to kill cleanly.

 

[StephenToast]

Yes they have.

However this from posts #1,#2, #3 was about applying results obtained in the USA with the U.K. and that is not sensible to do as they are not restricted by CIP standards, which we are.

So they can shoot geese in a 2 3/4” chambered gun with steel BB we (you) cannot as CIP rules require such cartridges to be HP steel which requires a 3” or longer chamber. Even pheasant ( and even some duck) Tom Roster is suggesting steel shot larger than 3.25mm (American 3 and 2) which again is for us HP steel.

We either accept the limitations applied to us by CIP and continue to use are 2.3/4” chamber guns with standard steel like you are happily doing or use 3”+ chambers and then can use what ever steel shot cartridges you like.

Nothing wrong with either option, within the limits of the cartridge to kill cleanly.

So when you said shooting would continue but people would have to change the way they shoot and use american 3 1/5 inch chambered autos... That wasn't true was it? In fact the vast majority won't have to change the way they shoot at all.

 

[Liveonce]

So when you said shooting would continue but people would have to change the way they shoot and use american 3 1/5 inch chambered autos... That wasn't true was it? In fact the vast majority won't have to change the way they shoot at all.

May have been a little OTT, however for live quarry then change will happen. Just depends on what you shoot and what with and what limitations you want to place on yourself. Small gauge shooters will be worst hit by a lead shot ban as will the high bird shooters. Then will gun makers continue to make guns with chambers less than 3”?

My view is for live quarry we will drift over time towards the American culture of 3” plus chambers to allow full use of steel shot cartridges to comply with CIP rules. If gun on peg 1 is dropping all they shoot at stone dead with HP steel and gun on peg 2 with standard steel is not doing likewise, then what?

 

[Dunwaters]

May have been a little OTT, however for live quarry then change will happen. Just depends on what you shoot and what with and what limitations you want to place on yourself. Small gauge shooters will be worst hit by a lead shot ban as will the high bird shooters. Then will gun makers continue to make guns with chambers less than 3”?

My view is for live quarry we will drift over time towards the American culture of 3” plus chambers to allow full use of steel shot cartridges to comply with CIP rules. If gun on peg 1 is dropping all they shoot at stone dead with HP steel and gun on peg 2 with standard steel is not doing likewise, then what?

The recommendation for steel shot payload weights on mallard and pheasant are 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 oz.
You can definitely get those in 2 3/4” cartridges.
Geese have been a 3” magnum job since the chambering was first developed or you learn to reduce your range.
The study concentrates on lethality and the recommendations are based on which shot at what payload produces the most lethal effects on average.
Frankly I can’t see the recommendations changing because of where you are, where your gun was made, whether it’s a side by side or OU, or a pump or an auto loader.
An ounce of 6 shot at 1400FPS has the same ballistic properties regardless of what platform it was launched from.
The recommendations clearly challenge quite a few cherished beliefs, however if I was going to shoot where lead was banned, I’d find the information and recommendations helpful when it came to selecting an alternative, because quite frankly I’d never have considered going to steel 2’s, 3’s would have been a stretch.
A paradigm shift is required, icons are tumbling and sacred cows are being slaughtered, but so what?
I’ll get over it, most of us will.

 

[Smellydog]

A friend of mine use to use 70mm express #5 steel on geese. Worked out fine.

 

[timbrayford]

I am not imposing my opinion, all I am doing is pointing out the lack of scientific rigour in your responses to the information presented.
You on the other hand are presenting your unverified opinions as fact and refusing to acknowledge that the information presented has been reviewed and accepted as a true representation of the available evidence.
Under the circumstances it’s you who are imposing your views and opinions on other's while refusing to consider alternatives contrary to those dearly cherished beliefs.

On this I'm afraid that we must agree to differ, although I note that sales of lead shot cartridges far exceed those of steel ones so I believe that the majority of shooters share my opinions. Have a nice day!

 

[Heym SR20]

What do you suggest I do with the rest of my guns?

Try the Eley Grand Prix steel, Gamebore Regal Steel or Lylevale precision steel. They are all available in a 2 1/2” cartridge and designed to work in old guns. Provided you have less than 1/2 choke and the gun is in reasonable condition - ie still in proof and barrel walls not paper thin they are all good.

And have just had a case of 16 bore 2 1/2” steel cartridges delivered so even these are catered for.

 

[Smellydog]

Try the Eley Grand Prix steel, Gamebore Regal Steel or Lylevale precision steel. They are all available in a 2 1/2” cartridge and designed to work in old guns. Provided you have less than 1/2 choke and the gun is in reasonable condition - ie still in proof and barrel walls not paper thin they are all good.

And have just had a case of 16 bore 2 1/2” steel cartridges delivered so even these are catered for.

Aye, and my teeth?
And my muzzleloaders?
Can you imagine the resentment having to buy something I don't need to? Like bizzy shot.

I know you mean well. Appreciate that.


I guess some of us are just happy to accept change and some of us are not.
I think the emotive issue for me is being forced into a style or way of shooting that is nothing like how I have done so and so I'm aware it will be something forced upon me and that will loose some of its magic. Possibly that is the hidden agenda.....make then dance to our tune. I wonder what the tune will be next...
.

 

[Liveonce]

The recommendation for steel shot payload weights on mallard and pheasant are 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 oz.
You can definitely get those in 2 3/4” cartridges.
Geese have been a 3” magnum job since the chambering was first developed or you learn to reduce your range.
The study concentrates on lethality and the recommendations are based on which shot at what payload produces the most lethal effects on average.
Frankly I can’t see the recommendations changing because of where you are, where your gun was made, whether it’s a side by side or OU, or a pump or an auto loader.
An ounce of 6 shot at 1400FPS has the same ballistic properties regardless of what platform it was launched from.
The recommendations clearly challenge quite a few cherished beliefs, however if I was going to shoot where lead was banned, I’d find the information and recommendations helpful when it came to selecting an alternative, because quite frankly I’d never have considered going to steel 2’s, 3’s would have been a stretch.
A paradigm shift is required, icons are tumbling and sacred cows are being slaughtered, but so what?
I’ll get over it, most of us will.

View attachment 343831

However even for a 1 1/8 oz cartridge you will not get 1400FPS from a standard steel shot cartridge as it exceeds the CIP momentum limit of 12Ns.

((1.125 x 28.3495)/1000)x 426.72 = 13.6 Ns

CIP limits the performance of standard steel shot, to go past that you need HP steel.

So your 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 oz in standard steel will be much slower, e.g. 376ms or 1234fps for the 1 1/8 oz cartridges (less again for the 1 1/4 oz) with a maximum shot size of 3.25mm all of which will limit the scope of use for them compared to HP steel.

We are just not used to selecting a cartridge by both quarry and the distance we intend to shoot at, rather we currently select a lead shot cartridge by quarry.