The solid copper forum.

[Leec6.5]

If you use lead through the shoulder that is humane, what you do with the carcass is immaterial. My experience with copper (specifically with roe deer) using the same aim as with lead based bullets is not humane in my opinion. Everyone should look at Terminal Ballistics research, scroll down the Knowledge Base until you reach the article regarding the INHUMANE effects of copper bullets. There is a wealth of research and experience in there and I would take more notice of that than any bollox about the health risks. If anyone takes deer control seriously then having decided that something has to die, the least you can do is to make it humane. Absolutely end of rant!!

I’ve been loading copper a very very long time, to be honest this is the first time I’ve shot lead for about 15 years, the key to successfully shooting copper is not push the living hell out of them, I have always found that if you drive the correct weight bullet designed for the rifle at sensible speeds you get humane kills

All this light bullets, drive them hard just causes problems

 

[Tim.243]

I’ve been loading copper a very very long time, to be honest this is the first time I’ve shot lead for about 15 years, the key to successfully shooting copper is not push the living hell out of them, I have always found that if you drive the correct weight bullet designed for the rifle at sensible speeds you get humane kills

All this light bullets, drive them hard just causes problems

You was going to have an early night! See 11 fallow after that muntjac but on the sky line

 

[Utectok]

The reality is that bullet and calibre combination is a poor choice for shooting at those ranges.
Barnes TTSX operate in a window of 3300-2400 FPS with good terminal performance, 2400-2200 FPS they will kill but it will be noticeably slower with narrowing wound tracts, under 2200 FPS they really aren't expanding much at all.

The ranges given using a ballistic calc (AB Custom Curve) and his MV give the following impact velocities:

Shot 1 - 228M (250 Yards) - 2154 FPS
Shot 2 - 251M (275 Yards) - 2075 FPS
Shot 3 - 274M (300 Yards) - 1997 FPS

Ultimately at every shot he is outside the velocity window where these bullets perform.


The other factor is he is shooting a very small calibre, given the high weight retention designs like Barnes TTSX expand to 1.5-2X diameter when in the operating window, a .223 cal bullet will only reach a diameter of .3345-.446, only marginally bigger than a .308 pencilling if you're closer to the 1.5X side, which you would probably get towards the lower end of the operating window when you haven't hit bone.

This is one reason I recommend people use a larger calibre than the absolute minimum.


Ultimately in my opinion either use a 6.5 or larger if you want to use high weight retention designs, as you then have the BC/Velocity/Frontal area to make them work well, or if you want to use these very small calibres (6.5 or under) then choose a fragmenting design like the Yew Tree TLR which will maximise the terminal damage you see from a small bullet.

Equally if you are going to be shooting at distance or where the terminal velocity is starting low, (ie your terminal velocity is going to be low) then choose a fragmenting design which is optimised for retaining velocity and has a lower expansion window.

I have shot lots of Barnes and stoped using them as the performance after 250m was a bit poor. I’ve now gone to yew tree tlr no problem there. I believe the lighter Barnes pushed faster are a better (100gn) but I’ve moved on now to yew tree and won’t be changing back.

 

[Rutland lad]

How things have changed over the years, go back in time 10-15 years and all I was shooting then was Barnes TTSX on a 2 week rotation shipment from Utah from cliffs gunsmithing, you lot thought I was mad at loading bullets for £1.50 a bang

Now it’s the norm

Your post made me smile.

I’ve been on non lead almost 15 years. At one stage I bought a quantity of Barnes TXS from the US in differing weights and calibres for myself and stalking mates who were all reloading. I think the advice from the US seller was something like ‘you’re paying for 20kg of postage, you might as well have 20kg of bullets in the package’
This cost a lot of money back in 2010 (ish) but it lasted us quite some time.
At that point in time in the UK there wasn’t much available that wasn’t lead - how times have changed !

I’m lead free in 6.5x55, 308 and 300 WM. All are extremely accurate and all do the job well.
I’m very pleased that back then someone with foresight persuaded me to make the leap away from lead. I’ve no regrets.

 

[Leec6.5]

Your post made me smile.

I’ve been on non lead almost 15 years. At one stage I bought a quantity of Barnes TXS from the US in differing weights and calibres for myself and stalking mates who were all reloading. I think the advice from the US seller was something like ‘you’re paying for 20kg of postage, you might as well have 20kg of bullets in the package’
This cost a lot of money back in 2010 (ish) but it lasted us quite some time.
At that point in time in the UK there wasn’t much available that wasn’t lead - how times have changed !

I’m lead free in 6.5x55, 308 and 300 WM. All are extremely accurate and all do the job well.
I’m very pleased that back then someone with foresight persuaded me to make the leap away from lead. I’ve no regrets.

Back then there was no BS load data,You just loaded a bullet for what the weight was not what it was supposed to do or not to do at the other end early days Copper was the easiest reloading that I’ve ever done and long may that continue most of the congregation on the SD are making nothing but bloody hard work out of it.

 

[Rutland lad]

Perhaps I’ve been lucky - in fact I’ve been VERY lucky to have been given solid advice from experienced reloaders during my journey.
My .300 WM was a mild load with 180 grain Barnes TSX. It was somewhere around 2700fps but it was extremely accurate. I didn’t need it go any faster ! It worked, and that was it.
The myths and misunderstandings around copper have never ceased to amaze and amuse me.

My mantra on non toxic is basically this - if I put the bullet where it should go, it will do its job.

Nobody ever admits that their shot was not a good one - the non lead bullet always gets the blame.

And I must say that the butcher I deal with says much the same as you - if there’s any damage to shoulders or fore end caused by shots being a little too far forward, then he puts that in the bin. His time is better spent on undamaged meat.

I am really looking forward to getting into the hinds with my 51cm long 308 barrel shooting 150 grain Fox Classic Hunter at about 2700fps. It’s accurate.

 

[Leec6.5]

You and I are very lucky that we don’t have to think about it any more, we have chosen our path and we continue to walk it, long may that continue

 

[Rob-E]

So far I’ve tried factory loads Winchester extreme copper in both 243 and 308.

85gr 243 it’s been exceptional, it’s longest shot has been 217m on a red hind which ran 20m leaving an colossal blood trail. Probably a bit light for the stags though.

The 150gr 308 I’m less convinced with, granted I’ve only used it on smaller species, I’ve not been getting the bang flop I would’ve expected and when I have, a couple have required a follow up. I’m unsure if this is through lack of expansion or what as I’ve not recovered a round yet.

A friend uses them as well in 243 and 270 with no issues, I’d be interested to know others experience with this factory ammo in 308 in particular.

 

[EMcC]

Digging around in the back of my ammo cabinet I found a half box of Sellier & Bellot 30-06 165gr non lead cartridges, they looked pretty too with their blue tip, so decided to get some more for use on my next Boar trip.
WoW what a shock, the original box from my cabinet had a price sticker of £39.50 but the price of the packs I bought today were £58.95 and was told the next batch he is expecting in will cost well over £65.00.
Now the thing is, when I was a nipper S&B cartridges were classed in the same category as Baikal and used to be the cheapest ammo on the market and always looked down on by Gentlemen as cheap rubbish. I know things have improved since I was a nipper, 70 years since, but S&B cost so much now they can no longer be classed as cheap rubbish and are now in the same league as Norma and other high class (expensive) ammo.

 

[Harry mac]

Now the thing is, when I was a nipper S&B cartridges were classed in the same category as Baikal and used to be the cheapest ammo on the market and always looked down on by Gentlemen as cheap rubbish.

When I was in Germany, the locals always said S & B stood for Scheiß und Billig; (Sh17 & Cheap).
My mate's wife went to Bisley last week and scored 10 bulls for 10 shots at 1000 yards, 6 of them were V bulls.
S & B might still be a bit on the billig side, but they're not scheiß any more.

 

[EMcC]

When I was in Germany, the locals always said S & B stood for Scheiß und Billig; (Sh17 & Cheap).
My mate's wife went to Bisley last week and scored 10 bulls for 10 shots at 1000 yards, 6 of them were V bulls.
S & B might still be a bit on the billig side, but they're not scheiß any more.

They always were in the same bracket as Baikel , cheap and nasty but now they are not cheap any more but I have not used them yet so not sure about the Nasty.

 

[Scipio]

When I was in Germany, the locals always said S & B stood for Scheiß und Billig; (Sh17 & Cheap).
My mate's wife went to Bisley last week and scored 10 bulls for 10 shots at 1000 yards, 6 of them were V bulls.
S & B might still be a bit on the billig side, but they're not scheiß any more.

Hello mate, and interesting input, - thanks!

Hm, maybe S and B have moved or upgraded their production facilities? Didnt ppu also do this, some years ago? If so, making better ammo, even ammo maybe still priced a bit better than the competition, might be possible for them.

I mean i see little reason why they in theory shouldnt be able to start producing good ammo, if they invest as is necessary in machinery and work force.

Nice shooting by the, missus, btw!

 

[User00056]

I won't start using them until I'm told to.

Same as myself. And as I don't sell anymore, perhaps not even then

 

[Harry mac]

I've not used factory ammo for deer in well over 20 years, so my lead free efforts have all been via handloading.
Finding loads that worked well has been an expensive process, with more than £200 being spent on bullets alone to get loads that shot accurately in .243, .308 & .303. Funnily enough, my .223 just shot great, the first copper bullet I tried.
In the .243, I've had good results with bullets by Nielsen Sonic, and Fox bullets.
The .308 also likes the Nielsens, but at the moment I'm trying out the LOS offering.
The .303 has been my problem child as far as copper goes. It did not like the Peregrinne bullet at all, but did show promise with the Fox.
Until I can work up a load for the .303 that inspires confidence, it's suspended from stalking duties.
Not withstanding that I've found workable loads for 3/4 of my stalking rifles, I haven't been able to get loads for the .243 and .308 that shot as accurately as the lead loads previously used.
As far as lethality goes, I've not noticed any difference, although losing the first roe I shot with the .308 didn't do my confidence much good at all! That was probably down to a bad shot, but with no carcasse to examine, I'll never know for sure.

 

[Heym SR20]

So far I’ve tried factory loads Winchester extreme copper in both 243 and 308.

85gr 243 it’s been exceptional, it’s longest shot has been 217m on a red hind which ran 20m leaving an colossal blood trail. Probably a bit light for the stags though.

The 150gr 308 I’m less convinced with, granted I’ve only used it on smaller species, I’ve not been getting the bang flop I would’ve expected and when I have, a couple have required a follow up. I’m unsure if this is through lack of expansion or what as I’ve not recovered a round yet.

A friend uses them as well in 243 and 270 with no issues, I’d be interested to know others experience with this factory ammo in 308 in particular.

Friend was using Winchester extreme copper in 308. It was all that was available over in Argyle. He really didn’t like it. Bullet just seems too hard.

He has moved to Fox - works very well.

 

[Mike1979]

First 4 deer shot over the last few days (fallow prickets mainly) with 6.5 Creed and Sako Powerhead blade 120 grain. Good results (well 4 dead deer). Nothing overly range with 80 yard chest shot, 30 yard 1/4 shot through the front shoulder, 30 yard head and 170 yard chest. Going to try some S&B Blue through the rifle just to see if they give a tighter group then the blades