.243 or .308 or maybe something else?

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Along with the fact it’s in black and white in the Home Office Guidelines. That 6.5 is the largest they like to give where they can’t get away with saying 243. It seems to be the attitude of FLD’s around me to try limit the size of the rifle, sometimes without rhyme or reason to the ballistic capability of said rifle/cartridge.

Not from the UK so don't know anything about your Home Office Guidelines...

Seems like your FLDs need to do a bit of homework on their cartridges.

"I'll give you a 6.5 creedmore but not a .308"

Makes loads of sense that

 

[AndersGilton]

308 as a allrounder, lots of bulk FMJ for training and great with 130/150gr TTSX bullets and a lot of great with lead...

As I'm a Swede I hold our 6,5x55SE high valued, 120gr TTSX works great.

 

[Foxyboy43]

Much debate and the usual sprinkling of nonsense disparate views on trajectory in the 243 to 308 and everything in between, chamberings. Posted this several times before - those nice people at Sako produced this and they know a bit about ammunition - Decide on what you want to do then select the chambering and the bullet required to do it then just get on with it!

 

[Utectok]

I used to recommend .308 for all new CF shooters nowadays I’d say 6.5cm of course both very good but 6.5 cm has the edge. Forget .243 as it’s not up to longer copper projectiles

 

[geoffw]

6.5x55SE - Sweet shooter, punches hard on Roe to Reds and minimal recoil so you see the bullet strike - simples! Oh and no manbun is required!
You are welcome.

Does that mean your manbun is purely a personal choice then @Foxyboy43 ?

 

[Sealgair nam fiadh]

The OP has said that 6.5 is hard to get and expensive in his area.
308, get it anywhere and suitable for lead free.
If I was the OP it would be a 308.

 

[Kjf]

Just get a 308 , you will buy a 243 , and then buy a 308 anyway , then you will sell the 243 lol,

Kjf

 

[hoodwink]

Why exactly is a firearms officer likely to approve a 6.5 over something else?

Experience. I was told as a first centerfire for deer 243w this was several years ago . I came across a guy that was told he could have a 270 but not a 308 as it was too much gun! This was a rarity for sure but very common to be told 243 which now has the argument that it is not easy for non toxic ammo.
As a first center fire application its not allways wise to go against the grain when simple and easy is such a good option.

 

[ChesterP]

Isn't simple and easy about providing enough evidence to provide good reason and a knowledge of calibre, land and quarry though? The real reason came out in the wash why initial reluctance was brought to bear for the 308, citing "we don't want every Tom, Dick and Harry wandering about the countryside with such a big high energy Calibre....public safety comes first". That argument fell flat on its face very quickly when I pointed out that a 243 can carry higher velocity for a longer distance so poses arguably as much if not more risk but point was, demonstrating suitable backstops on the land I was shooting over and taking the FEO out to show him where I would be shooting saw 308 granted. There was no sense to the argument which seems to be the same country-wide. 30 cal is seen by many authorities as "too much gun" for a first application. They consider muzzle energy as a yardstick in many cases, the 308's approx 2720 ft-kbs V's the 243's approx 1940 ft-lbs. It's a bit like arguing you're more likely to be flattened flatter by a steam roller than a dumper truck when the outcome would be the same!

 

[hoodwink]

Isn't simple and easy about providing enough evidence to provide good reason and a knowledge of calibre, land and quarry though? The real reason came out in the wash why initial reluctance was brought to bear for the 308, citing "we don't want every Tom, Dick and Harry wandering about the countryside with such a big high energy Calibre....public safety comes first". That argument fell flat on its face very quickly when I pointed out that a 243 can carry higher velocity for a longer distance so poses arguably as much if not more risk but point was, demonstrating suitable backstops on the land I was shooting over and taking the FEO out to show him where I would be shooting saw 308 granted. There was no sense to the argument which seems to be the same country-wide. 30 cal is seen by many authorities as "too much gun" for a first application. They consider muzzle energy as a yardstick in many cases, the 308's approx 2720 ft-kbs V's the 243's approx 1940 ft-lbs. It's a bit like arguing you're more likely to be flattened flatter by a steam roller than a dumper truck when the outcome would be the same!

I agree with you, totally, its some times just about an FEO,s perception and bias. Do we need an argument when and if he says ”I would prefer you start with xyz” and that happens to be a very capable calibre in gods own calibre (Hornady)

 

[badmolassesaccident]

Not from the UK so don't know anything about your Home Office Guidelines...

Seems like your FLDs need to do a bit of homework on their cartridges.

"I'll give you a 6.5 creedmore but not a .308"

Makes loads of sense that

As I wrote before, it is firearms licencing, so it does not need to make sense.

Some FEOs will tell you they want to to start with something smaller than a 308. Especially if OP sits down with the FEO with the tea and biscuits and says they want to shoot fox and deer. The 6.5 Creedmoor (to use a 6.5 example) is legal for every deer species in the UK and is one of the suggested calibers for fox, whereas 308 isn't suggested for fox. So why do they need a 308? Answering that some people on the internet told them that they should be telling the FEO what to give them and rejecting any of the FEOs suggestions is not going to go down well. Esp on a first grant.

There would need to be reasons why the 308 is the most suitable. Reasons such as:
"I want only one rifle and the 308 is the most versatile and has the widest selection of ammunition available in my area suitable for both fox and deer."
"I want to shoot deer at moderate rather than short ranges and the higher downrange energy of the 308 is better for that purpose, especially for large deer"

 

[Foxyboy43]

Does that mean your manbun is purely a personal choice then @Foxyboy43 ?

For obvious reasons an MB is not an option - think of hair and absence of. Plus I have far better taste…..

 

[Pete1774]

I know this can be a very contentious subject and there isn't a right or wrong answer, but it's something that's been playing on my mind as I fill out the FAC... Which calibre should I be asking for.

I'm very new to stalking, just doing the DSC 1, have been on a couple of guided stalks and been dry stalking (not sure that's a phrase, basically going out alone, no gun watching deer), was going to wait until after the DSC 1 one to start doing the FAC but given the lengthy delays I thought I'd do it now.
I'm incredibally lucky to be very close to a farmer with a 1200 acre farm and we have the argreement that I can have premission to shoot game on his land if I help with the foxes especially round lambing time. I had also planned to have a 17hmr for the bunnies, 12g for the feathers (already own) and a deer rifle of some discription for the deer. The 17HMR is no issue, there are plenty secondhand setups in good enough for me. However, the deer rifle is something I want to spend the money on and get new and keep forever, looking at Mauser M12 or Tikka T3x - not relevant for this chat unless people have had some real issues with either of these!

To summerise the totally unnecessary long-winded brief to my questions, if you fitted into the following which calibre would you have on your first FAC application?
- Only have the land if I can help with the fox population
- Only want to buy one full bore rifle
- Nearly exclusively Roe Deer on permission, but will do the once or twice a year trip with brother for Red


I've always heard that the .243 is the better all rounder, but the ammo is more expensive and might struggle with the real big boys. But the 308 with it's trajectory/bullet drop isn't the greatest for the old foxes, but will handle the big boys and cheaper ammo.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,
DT

If you're going to use factory ammo it might be worth you watching this chat with a Hornady ballistics man:

 

[Lancaster]

I know this can be a very contentious subject and there isn't a right or wrong answer, but it's something that's been playing on my mind as I fill out the FAC... Which calibre should I be asking for.

I'm very new to stalking, just doing the DSC 1, have been on a couple of guided stalks and been dry stalking (not sure that's a phrase, basically going out alone, no gun watching deer), was going to wait until after the DSC 1 one to start doing the FAC but given the lengthy delays I thought I'd do it now.
I'm incredibally lucky to be very close to a farmer with a 1200 acre farm and we have the argreement that I can have premission to shoot game on his land if I help with the foxes especially round lambing time. I had also planned to have a 17hmr for the bunnies, 12g for the feathers (already own) and a deer rifle of some discription for the deer. The 17HMR is no issue, there are plenty secondhand setups in good enough for me. However, the deer rifle is something I want to spend the money on and get new and keep forever, looking at Mauser M12 or Tikka T3x - not relevant for this chat unless people have had some real issues with either of these!

To summerise the totally unnecessary long-winded brief to my questions, if you fitted into the following which calibre would you have on your first FAC application?
- Only have the land if I can help with the fox population
- Only want to buy one full bore rifle
- Nearly exclusively Roe Deer on permission, but will do the once or twice a year trip with brother for Red


I've always heard that the .243 is the better all rounder, but the ammo is more expensive and might struggle with the real big boys. But the 308 with it's trajectory/bullet drop isn't the greatest for the old foxes, but will handle the big boys and cheaper ammo.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

Cheers,
DT

I would have another rifle, I wouldn't use a .308 as a semi dedicated fox rifle with deer as an add on, pointless waste of expensive ammunition, even when reloading, it is a lot cheaper with .204, .222, .223 etc.

 

[ChesterP]

If small deer including Roe and fox only (and you're North of the border) then 223 is a really sensible option. 308 and factory ammo doesn't have to be expensive. Remy Core locked at £26/box is about the same as 223. Sako around £33. That's a small price for a dozen deer.

 

[IBD]

For a bit of everything in the U.K. I’d go .243, .270 and 7x57. Either one of those. Probably if pushed I’d go 7x57 but not sure about non lead ammo so maybe if I knew more I’d go .270

 

[Lancaster]

If small deer including Roe and fox only (and you're North of the border) then 223 is a really sensible option. 308 and factory ammo doesn't have to be expensive. Remy Core locked at £26/box is about the same as 223. Sako around £33. That's a small price for a dozen deer.

As usual I tend to agree with you, but the thicker jacket of the corelokt in a .308 isn't optimal in terms of frangibility for a fox sized target?

 

[JTO]

- Only want to buy one full bore rifle

This would be your best argument for getting a .308, I would think.
For ammo availability, ammo price, barrel life, .223 AND .308 would be the simplest choice to make.

 

[kenbro]

Regarding foxes and 308…

If you aren’t keeping the fox pelt, the caliber doesn’t really matter. Caliber choice would come down to cost and your backdrop.

I’ve shot a porcupine with a 300 win mag at point blank range. Blew it damn near in half… but the meat was still good. I’d say it was effective. All depends on your end goal. (My hunting partners and I were on a mountain hunt and were literally starving, needed the meat).

sounds like you and you partners are not very good at hunting if starving!

 

[Sonicdmb73]

Not from the UK so don't know anything about your Home Office Guidelines...

Seems like your FLDs need to do a bit of homework on their cartridges.

"I'll give you a 6.5 creedmore but not a .308"

Makes loads of sense that

You’re trying to apply logic to something to which it doesn’t apply. Nor does common sense on a vast number of decisions.

The staff have little training certainly nothing in the way of a formal qualification.
I have had to deal with police/civilian staff who couldn’t even make a firearm safe.
Go figure The main constant seems to be making it hard work to legally own a firearm.